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Kitchen remodel

ICE

ICE

Oh Well
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
12,918
Location
California
The question is when to apply the requirements for receptacle spacing on kitchen counters. Specific to remodel work. If there is new cabinets and countertop that is identical to the previous countertop, would you require that receptacle outlets be added to meet the minimum spacing per the code?
 
If in the same place would R105 .6 (cabinets) be exempt from permitting?

Does CA have a code like the IEBC?
 
If only cabinets and countertops are being replaced, in the same location, I would not. That job as described would be exempt from permits. Now, if they removed the drywall for whatever reason, then yes-bring the electrical up to current code.
 
Typically if it is like for like cabinet/countertop replacement, we say no....If they are adding any new countertop, then receptacle accordingly....I can't find a code path to force adding receptacles when swapping drywall either...
 
FLSTF01 said:
If only cabinets and countertops are being replaced, in the same location, I would not. That job as described would be exempt from permits. Now, if they removed the drywall for whatever reason, then yes, bring the electrical up to current code.
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I have pretty much the same take on it. Given the reason for the particular code requirement any avenue leading to compliance is worth following. Missing receptacles should be placed if anything is done to the wall space above the counter. For example if the plan is to tile/granite the wall. More than paint triggers compliance.
 
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steveray said:
Typically if it is like for like cabinet/countertop replacement, we say no....If they are adding any new countertop, then receptacle accordingly....I can't find a code path to force adding receptacles when swapping drywall either...
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The code path is already there. Allowing nonconformance when replacing the counter is done because nothing but the counter is replaced. Start doing other work and the basis for the exception evaporates.
 
The drywall is not what drives the outlet spacing requirements, it is the length of countertop. No change to CT length, no change to receptacles or wiring....IMO, but maybe in Tiger code.
 
steveray said:
The drywall is not what drives the outlet spacing requirements, it is the length of countertop. No change to CT length, no change to receptacles or wiring....IMO, but maybe in Tiger code.
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The only relationship between the countertop and the length of it is the requirement that 12" or more requires an outlet. It is the fact that there is kitchen counter that brings in the code. I am hard pressed to think of anything else in the code that can be replaced as like for like with a code violation built in.

We are attemting to formulate a policy and that I why I have asked for opinions.
 
Would you treat this the same:

A new deck is replacing where an old one was. There was no receptacle. Will you make them put one in now?

New vinyl siding on a house. Don't need a permit here. No receptacle on the exterior. Will you make them put one in front and one in the rear of the house?
 
ICE said:
The only relationship between the countertop and the length of it is the requirement that 12" or more requires an outlet.

We are attemting to formulate a policy and that I why I have asked for opinions.
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And 4'OC...and islands and peninsulas....As much as I would love to make these kitchen flippers upgrade, I can't....Policy is great, but at some point someone has to back it up and be prepared to explain it to their boss or judge or whomever...
 
We don't require a permit for cabinets or counters unless = 1- Moving the existing plbg. or 2 - removing drywall on exterior wall. If removing drywall we require permit for the insulation because its now open and may homes here don't have any. would make them install recps. as req. since it is open and easily accomplished now. On the plbg. it would depend on how much drywall was removed to do the plumbing.
 
Rick18071 said:
Would you treat this the same:

A new deck is replacing where an old one was. There was no receptacle. Will you make them put one in now?

New vinyl siding on a house. Don't need a permit here. No receptacle on the exterior. Will you make them put one in front and one in the rear of the house?
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The receptacles for the deck and front and back may not have been required during the time frame that the house was constructed under. So no receptacle is warranted. Even if it was required during construction, it is doubtful that I would challenge an inspectors approval on the final inspection from years ago.
The purpose served by those receptacles is purely convenience whereas kitchen counter receptacles include a safety element. Not to say that there is a large difference but there is that to consider.

I appreciate your pointing out these examples.

One problem that I have with a like for like exemption policy is that we have no way of knowing what the original kitchen looked like.
 
"One problem that I have with a like for like exemption policy is that we have no way of knowing what the original kitchen looked like."

Mandate a pre-permit inspection?
 
steveray said:
"One problem that I have with a like for like exemption policy is that we have no way of knowing what the original kitchen looked like."

Mandate a pre-permit inspection?
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By the time they come in for a permit the old kitchen is gone and they need a rough combo inspection.
 
R102.7 Existing structures.
The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

R102.7.1 Additions, alterations or repairs.
Additions, alterations or repairs to any structure shall conform to the requirements for a new structure without requiring the existing structure to comply with the requirements of this code, unless otherwise stated. Additions, alterations, repairs and relocations shall not cause an existing structure to become unsafe or adversely affect the performance of the building.

IPMC
605.2 Receptacles. Every habitable space in a dwelling shall contain at least two separate and remote receptacle outlets. Every laundry area shall contain at least one grounding-type receptacle or a receptacle with a ground fault circuit interrupter. Every bathroom shall contain at least one receptacle. Any new bathroom receptacle outlet shall have ground fault circuit interrupter protection. All receptacle outlets shall have the appropriate faceplate cover for the location.
 
No pre-inspection to establish what is existing, then they get to bring it up to current code? I could see the howling over that though.

.After spending all that money for cabinets & countertops, why would they not want the additional convenience of more receptacles on the counter? Seems foolish to me not too, just my opinion.
 
My wife and I recently looked at a home in Marina (built in the early '70's) that we're considering making an offering on. The Kitchen was (somewhat) updated (obviously circa 1985 - 12x12 granite tile with a wood fascia!) but has a 10'x3'-6" sliding window (no lie!) across the wall that the sink is on, with a peninsula to boot - but no outlets ANYWHERE along that run or the peninsula! It is SO far out of compliance, but if only the cabinets, countertops, faucet and appliances were replaced there would be NO upgrading of the electrical to address the peninsula unless you were a part of the design/construction industry and knew you needed to do it.
 
And you are replying on the honesty of the people, that the cabinets are in the same location?
Do you require permits when they install sinks, garbage disposers, new gas lines for the cooktop, range hood.......
"But sir i just replaced my cabinets..... "
 
As an electrician, and my understanding of the NEC that I was taught in my apprenticeship is that you only have to bring wiring up to code if you alter the existing wiring in some way. Or I guess if you alter the framing, e.g. adding walls.

Cabinets have nothing to do with electrical wiring unless you cover something up, add an outlet, or move an appliance. If you don't do any of those things, nothing has to be brought up to code. The second you add an outlet or move an appliance, the wiring in the whole kitchen needs to be brought up to code.

I love homeowners who buy an old house, and then get mad that everything wasn't renovated to their satisfaction. They own that house now, it's their project.
 
mfichter80 said:
As an electrician, and my understanding of the NEC that I was taught in my apprenticeship is that you only have to bring wiring up to code if you alter the existing wiring in some way. Or I guess if you alter the framing, e.g. adding walls.

Cabinets have nothing to do with electrical wiring unless you cover something up, add an outlet, or move an appliance. If you don't do any of those things, nothing has to be brought up to code. The second you add an outlet or move an appliance, the wiring in the whole kitchen needs to be brought up to code.

I love homeowners who buy an old house, and then get mad that everything wasn't renovated to their satisfaction. They own that house now, it's their project.
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Adding counter space can result in additional receptacles. An additional receptacle would not result in bringing the whole kitchen up to code.....well unless there is some gross deviation from the code the kitchen was built under....without that, the kitchen is already up to code.
 
ICE said:
Adding counter space can result in additional receptacles. An additional receptacle would not result in bringing the whole kitchen up to code....without that, the kitchen is already up to code.
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Depends Is it up to code, are you altering any of the circuits to add the additional outlet.
If you alter the existing circuit by adding the additional outlet, it, by code shall be "brought up to code.
If you are adding the new outlet on a new circuit, the new circuit shall meet the current code.

Remember people lie all the time, as we see in your photos. Trust but Verify.
 
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