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retrofit windows

ICE

ICE

Oh Well
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
12,919
Location
California
Chances are that I have asked about this previously but I would still like to hear from the members. Do you allow retrofit windows to be installed in a new construction opening? I apologize for the poor quality picture but it's typical with remote virtual inspections.

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Years ago I inspected a residential site with a sizable addition built by a regional company, they used retrofit windows. I did not approve the job, requested manufacture documentation for using retrofit in new construction. Documentation not received, windows replaced.

Fast forward to today, I would still take the same approach. However I do not feel as strongly about this action and if a reasonable conversation can justify I’d likely move on.

The only difference I’m aware of is an exterior nailing flange vs inside jamb fasteners.
 
So the customer found some $69 units from Window World on craigslist and you’re going to dash his dreams of building a house for $50/sf?
 
This is not new territory for me. It's years old. But like a bad penny, it crops up

So far I have not found a window manufacturer that has installation instructions for installing retrofit windows in a new construction opening. The reason that I have brought it up here is to find out what other inspectors are doing about it. Several inspectors that I work with allow it. That creates an issue. Today I was asked to inspect the lath and found this...and this window situation was expressly approved in writing.

Windows are notorious for leaking water. Seldom is it the actual window..nay nay...it is the installtion.
 
I was joking. Why would some builder do that? Are they so inept not to know the difference?
 
Do the manufacturer's installation instructions address this? I expect they have some requirement for sealing the replacement window to the existing frame. Just make them install a frame flashed per code, then they can put a replacement window in the frame and seal it to the frame.
 
This afternoon I found out that I have been overruled. An inspector and the office manager devised a method for installing retrofit windows in new construction openings. The method utilizes L metal, moiststop sticky flashing and caulk.....lots of caulk.

This was done not withstanding the window manufacturers absolute rejection. The manufacturing companies would not entertain a “what if.” The answer was no.

The manufacturer has a motive that clashes with the Building Department‘s reason for being.

An inspector that was party to the decision stated “This is a small matter in the grand scheme of things.” ......Aren’t they all?
 
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I have never, ever seen retrofit windows used in new construction. An expectation that the home owner is going to maintain the required caulking system to ensure the outside stays outside and the inside stays inside is foolish.

If it was such a little thing, why are they not just writing up the correction and moving on. No, instead we create a scenario where we were right all along to allow the deficient construction, even though the circumstances used to justify it now were not present in the past. But, all this is easier than a simple admission for most people. "I was wrong".

I always see this as ironic. We work in an industry where we help people who are doing things wrong to correct them, but so many of us cannot admit when we make a mistake.
 
tmurray said:
I have never, ever seen retrofit windows used in new construction. An expectation that the home owner is going to maintain the required caulking system to ensure the outside stays outside and the inside stays inside is foolish.

If it was such a little thing, why are they not just writing up the correction and moving on. No, instead we create a scenario where we were right all along to allow the deficient construction, even though the circumstances used to justify it now were not present in the past. But, all this is easier than a simple admission for most people. "I was wrong".

I always see this as ironic. We work in an industry where we help people who are doing things wrong to correct them, but so many of us cannot admit when we make a mistake.
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What code section would you cite in your correction writeup?
 
ICE said:
I don't usually do that.....but as I recall tmurray does that always.
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My very first question to the inspector would be to cite the code that defines a new construction window vs a retrofit window and then the section that requires where one should be used.
Inspectors don't get to make judgements on what they like or don't like, just whether it meets the code or not. If you can't cite the code I won't comply with your correction order.
 
redeyedfly said:
My very first question to the inspector would be to cite the code that defines a new construction window vs a retrofit window and then the section that requires where one should be used.
Inspectors don't get to make judgements on what they like or don't like, just whether it meets the code or not. If you can't cite the code I won't comply with your correction order.
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You must be new to the industry with that type of attitude. Either that, or your voice is a bit bigger on a forum than in the real world. I would pay to watch you tell an inspector that you will refuse to comply with a correction order unless provide the code section.

Sure, if you ask for one, the inspector should be able to provide you the code section. No question. But demanding that one be provided or refusing to comply, you will be red-tagged and shut down before too long.

And as for a code section, see the following:

R609.1 General​
This section prescribes performance and construction requirements for exterior windows and doors installed in walls. Windows and doors shall be installed and flashed in accordance with the fenestration manufacturer's written instructions. Window and door openings shall be flashed in accordance with Section R703.4. Written installation instructions shall be provided by the fenestration manufacturer for each window or door.​

As indicated by ICE, the manufacturer does not permit the installation of retrofit windows in new construction. Therefore, it is a violation of R609.1.

There... you have your code section.
 
redeyedfly said:
What code section would you cite in your correction writeup?
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I would cite 9.7.6.1. which requires windows to be installed in accordance with CSA A440.4. There is nowhere in the installation standard that deals with installation of retrofit windows in new construction.
 
classicT said:
You must be new to the industry with that type of attitude. Either that, or your voice is a bit bigger on a forum than in the real world. I would pay to watch you tell an inspector that you will refuse to comply with a correction order unless provide the code section.

Sure, if you ask for one, the inspector should be able to provide you the code section. No question. But demanding that one be provided or refusing to comply, you will be red-tagged and shut down before too long.

And as for a code section, see the following:

R609.1 General​
This section prescribes performance and construction requirements for exterior windows and doors installed in walls. Windows and doors shall be installed and flashed in accordance with the fenestration manufacturer's written instructions. Window and door openings shall be flashed in accordance with Section R703.4. Written installation instructions shall be provided by the fenestration manufacturer for each window or door.​

As indicated by ICE, the manufacturer does not permit the installation of retrofit windows in new construction. Therefore, it is a violation of R609.1.

There... you have your code section.
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What attitude? That inspectors can't make up code?
I've been in the industry for decades and challenged countless building officials. We can appeal to the state board in MN and I have done so many times. I have not yet lost to a local BO. There's a lot of you out there who think you're gods. Most of the BOs with that attitude are failed GCs just like the stereotype.
It is completely within my right to demand a code section. You red-tag the site as retaliation because you're making up code as you go along and you'll get your own personal lawsuit along with the city.

I don't see anything in R609.1 that would preclude anyone from installing a flangeless window in new construction. That's really the only difference. Go ahead and read down a little further in R609.7.2 where flangeless windows are prescriptively acceptable. It is not difficult to flash a flangeless window, we do it all the time in commercial construction. Storefront is a glaring example.

But you keep making up code...
 
redeyedfly said:
What attitude? That inspectors can't make up code?
I've been in the industry for decades and challenged countless building officials. We can appeal to the state board in MN and I have done so many times. I have not yet lost to a local BO. There's a lot of you out there who think you're gods. Most of the BOs with that attitude are failed GCs just like the stereotype.
It is completely within my right to demand a code section. You red-tag the site as retaliation because you're making up code as you go along and you'll get your own personal lawsuit along with the city.

I don't see anything in R609.1 that would preclude anyone from installing a flangeless window in new construction. That's really the only difference. Go ahead and read down a little further in R609.7.2 where flangeless windows are prescriptively acceptable. It is not difficult to flash a flangeless window, we do it all the time in commercial construction. Storefront is a glaring example.

But you keep making up code...
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Uhhhmmm.... hate to tell you, but it is not retaliation, it is the code.

R114.1 Notice to Owner or the Owner'S Authorized Agent​
Upon notice from the building official that work on any building or structure is being executed contrary to the provisions of this code or in an unsafe and dangerous manner, such work shall be immediately stopped. The stop work order shall be in writing and shall be given to the owner of the property involved, or to the owner's authorized agent or to the person performing the work and shall state the conditions under which work will be permitted to resume.​
​
R114.2 Unlawful Continuance​
Any person who shall continue any work in or about the structure after having been served with a stop work order, except such work as that person is directed to perform to remove a violation or unsafe condition, shall be subject to penalties as prescribed by law.​

Your impeccable record of beating code officials sounds great.... too bad it means nothing. And comparing a BO to god, ok... that' sounds like your inferiority complex is speaking out.

R609.1 specifically states that the window has to be installed per the manufacturer's written instructions. For the second time, the manufacturer does not permit the install of their retrofit windows in new construction. Therefore, doing so is a violation of R609.1.

I agree that flangeless windows are acceptable, where approved by the manufacturer and installed in accordance with their written instructions.

I am not making up code. I am providing the references to you... but if you can't follow and understand, that is your issue, not the BO's.
 
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classicT said:
Uhhhmmm.... hate to tell you, but it is not retaliation, it is the code.

R114.1 Notice to Owner or the Owner'S Authorized Agent​
Upon notice from the building official that work on any building or structure is being executed contrary to the provisions of this code or in an unsafe and dangerous manner, such work shall be immediately stopped. The stop work order shall be in writing and shall be given to the owner of the property involved, or to the owner's authorized agent or to the person performing the work and shall state the conditions under which work will be permitted to resume.​
​
R114.2 Unlawful Continuance​
Any person who shall continue any work in or about the structure after having been served with a stop work order, except such work as that person is directed to perform to remove a violation or unsafe condition, shall be subject to penalties as prescribed by law.​

Your impeccable record of beating code officials sounds great.... too bad it means nothing. And comparing a BO to god, ok... that' sounds like your inferiority complex is speaking out.

R609.1 specifically states that the window has to be installed per the manufacturer's written instructions. For the second time, the manufacturer does not permit the install of their retrofit windows in new construction. Therefore, doing so is a violation of R609.1.

I agree that flangeless windows are acceptable, where approved by the manufacturer and installed in accordance with their written instructions.

I am not making up code. I am providing the references to you... but if you can't follow and understand, that is your issue, not the BO's.
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I assure you that engineers have no inferiority complex to BOs with the equivalent education of a real estate agent. Most of you don't even know the code let alone how or why any of the provisions are included.
I will call BS that the window mfg won't allow their flangeless windows in new construction. I'd wager your code fiction buddy added that detail out of thin air.
 
redeyedfly said:
I assure you that engineers have no inferiority complex to BOs with the equivalent education of a real estate agent. Most of you don't even know the code let alone how or why any of the provisions are included.
I will call BS that the window mfg won't allow their flangeless windows in new construction. I'd wager your code fiction buddy added that detail out of thin air.
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Oh, so you are an engineer?

And most of us here are code officials. Heck, this forum is dedicated to and all about having code officials and design professionals work together.

If you think so low of BO's, why are you here?
 
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classicT said:
Oh, so you are an engineer?

And most of us here are code officials. Hell, this forum is dedicated to and all about having code officials and design professionals work together.

If you think so low of BO's, why are you here?
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There are many great BOs. Then there are many like you, who believe they have the authority to enforce their opinions on the registered design professionals who are actually liable for the performance of their designs. Of course, you're also forcing the owner to pay for your unnecessary code editorials.
 
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