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All doors out of a bldg required to be code compliant exits?

I can only smile. Some of the nearly ballistic opposition in the code hearings - where everyone was in a big room and lined up at the mics - to my proposal to clarify this told me to just design all m.o.e. components - whether required or not - to the code requirements. Inevitably, at least some of the times you don't, you'll spend more time and money on change orders then it would cost to leave out a sign or use different hardware or change the size.

I'd also have trouble defending a man-door in an exterior wall as NOT intended for an occupant to leave the building. Besides the not an exit sign including one that disabled can read would cost more. It's just smart design IMHO.
 
So there is a minimum requirement for door count out of a space but say your building has 12 doors to the exterior (assume warehouse with several convenience doors) and only (2) are required by code for exiting. Do you find in some jurisdictions that you are required to make all of those doors code compliant exits... with signage and access to public way/area of refuge?



1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system shall meet the requirements of this section and Section 1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.


The code requires a minimum number of means of egress doors. The code recognizes that there might be doors that facilitate egress that are not part of the minimum required means of egress. The code states that those extra doors provided for egress purposes shall meet the requirements of section 1010.
Section 1010.1 has two distinct types of doors....means of egress doors and doors provided for egress purposes. Well then a door is a door and there's code for all of them.
 
Example.....I have a large assembly area with proper side side hinged egress doors and I want to put a slider or some other fancy alternative door in the middle...Likely wouldn't qualify for egress, but it does not need to if it is not provided for egress.....
 
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Example.....I have a large assembly area with proper side side hinged egress doors and I want to put a slider or some other fancy alternative door in the middle...Likely wouldn't qualify for egress, but it does not need to if it is not provided for egress.....
Slippery "not provided to for egress" vs "does not provide egress". But since it's available to able bodied people it of course has to meet all the requirements for people with disabilities.

Railings on a stair that's not required? Guard strength for a guard that's not required? No guards or curbs or handrails on a ramp that's not required?

Steveray - I think you are in the minority based on 40 years of designing nationwide, and a lot of code hearings and committee meetings God bless you!
 
Slippery "not provided to for egress" vs "does not provide egress". But since it's available to able bodied people it of course has to meet all the requirements for people with disabilities.

Railings on a stair that's not required? Guard strength for a guard that's not required? No guards or curbs or handrails on a ramp that's not required?

Steveray - I think you are in the minority based on 40 years of designing nationwide, and a lot of code hearings and committee meetings God bless you!
bill1952, I provided one code and one ADA citation in post #5 showing where not all exit doors are required to be accessible to persons with disabilities. If you have an alternate citation, please provide it.
 
bill1952, I provided one code and one ADA citation in post #5 showing where not all exit doors are required to be accessible to persons with disabilities. If you have an alternate citation, please provide it.
I forget if you're on they're all exit doors or only 2 are, but if they are not exit doors, what are they? If they are intended for something else, is it discrimination if disabled people can't use them for whatever else they are intended?

I've been told by members of the Board that even if I meet all the requirements, and everything is perfectly accessible, I can't add another door for convenience, like a short cut from a storage room, that isn't accesible.
 
and what if the sign is obscured by smoke?
The required exits have lighted exit signs that say "EXIT". Often they are both high and low exit signs.
When the non-required doors (and their signs) get obscured by smoke, then in that regard it's even MORE obvious which doors are the exit doors: they're the ones with the illuminated EXIT signs that you can still see.
 
I forget if you're on they're all exit doors or only 2 are, but if they are not exit doors, what are they? If they are intended for something else, is it discrimination if disabled people can't use them for whatever else they are intended?
According to the ADA excerpt that I quoted, up 40% of the doors leading out of a building can be non-accessible without violating ADA Standards.

I've been told by members of the Board that even if I meet all the requirements, and everything is perfectly accessible, I can't add another door for convenience, like a short cut from a storage room, that isn't accesible.
Ask the board to provide a citation for that opinion.
Also, just to be clear, we are not talking about entrances - -we are talking about leaving the building.
 
If you have a door that goes outside what else would you use it for?

I have an event center that has more than the required number of exits that meet all the requirements for exiting to a public way or safe dispersal area. There are also 4 sets of double doors that have no panic hardware, no exit signs or emergency illumination identifying them as exit doors. These doors are primarily used during set up and dismantling the various events that happen there every week. If it is a car, boat or RV show they may park a unit directly in front of these doors.
During a gun show there are very strict state limitations on the amount of black powder, smokeless powder and small arms primers you can have in a building (about 1/2 of what the IFC permits) Vendors will park their trailer near the door so they can restock as needed throughout the weekend events.

They also save energy since it is better than opening the two 20ft X 16ft tall garage doors when it is less than 30 degrees outside or 90 to 100 degrees during the summer months.

Call them anything you want, just don't call them an exit
 
According to the ADA excerpt that I quoted, up 40% of the doors leading out of a building can be non-accessible without violating ADA Standards.


Ask the board to provide a citation for that opinion.
Also, just to be clear, we are not talking about entrances - -we are talking about leaving the building.
Actually no. The statement was made these additional doors are not intended for egress and therefore don't have to meet the requirements for doors in the means if egress.
 
I have an event center that has more than the required number of exits that meet all the requirements for exiting to a public way or safe dispersal area. There are also 4 sets of double doors that have no panic hardware, no exit signs or emergency illumination identifying them as exit doors. These doors are primarily used during set up and dismantling the various events that happen there every week. If it is a car, boat or RV show they may park a unit directly in front of these doors.
During a gun show there are very strict state limitations on the amount of black powder, smokeless powder and small arms primers you can have in a building (about 1/2 of what the IFC permits) Vendors will park their trailer near the door so they can restock as needed throughout the weekend events.

They also save energy since it is better than opening the two 20ft X 16ft tall garage doors when it is less than 30 degrees outside or 90 to 100 degrees during the summer months.

Call them anything you want, just don't call them an exit
Perfect. I hope all those non-egress doors are accessible so you don't didcriminate against vendors with disabilities.
 
Lets start with only 2 MOE (from an area) need to be accessible by the IBC

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible
means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.

When they are not an AMOE they they need signage to the AMOE...

1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided

at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.
2. Inaccessible public toilets and bathing facilities.
3. Elevators not serving an accessible route.
4. At each separate-sex toilet and bathing room indicating
the location of the nearest family/assisted use toilet or
bathing room where provided in accordance with Section
1109.2.1.
5. At exits and exit stairways serving a required accessible
space, but not providing an approved accessible means
of egress, signage shall be provided in accordance with
Section 1009.10.
 
Lets start with only 2 MOE (from an area) need to be accessible by the IBC

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible
means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.

When they are not an AMOE they they need signage to the AMOE...

1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided

at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.
2. Inaccessible public toilets and bathing facilities.
3. Elevators not serving an accessible route.
4. At each separate-sex toilet and bathing room indicating
the location of the nearest family/assisted use toilet or
bathing room where provided in accordance with Section
1109.2.1.
5. At exits and exit stairways serving a required accessible
space, but not providing an approved accessible means
of egress, signage shall be provided in accordance with
Section 1009.10.
No disagreement on m.o.e. doors. It's the
The extra doors are not provided for egress purposes...
that I believe as an amenity in the space are required to be accesible.
 
I'm not sure if this is about accessible exits or any exit. If all exterior doors need to follow IBC as an means of egress, doors that do not swing like garage and sliding doors would not be allowed.
 
Ok...but I can put a revolving door anywhere I want and it is not accessible?

7. Revolving doors shall not be part of an accessible
route required by Section 1009 and Chapter 11.
 
I'm not sure if this is about accessible exits or any exit. If all exterior doors need to follow IBC as an means of egress, doors that do not swing like garage and sliding doors would not be allowed.
A little bit of thread drift bringing in the accessibility at this point...Doors other than side hinge are allowed in specific limited cases....
 
.Doors other than side hinge are allowed in specific limited cases....
I never knew this. What code sections limit the amount or location of non-side hinged doors?

Would a exterior side hinged door that only goes to a balcony need to follow the "means of egress" sections?
 
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The basic issue is means of egress components in excess of what is required and whether they have to comply with the requirements for means of egress. Can a door in an exterior wall inswing, be less than minimum height and width, have no hardware to open it, or otherwise not comply with the requirements for a door in the means of egress? Can a stair in addition to all that are required for m.o.e. have 10" risers and no handrails? Can a non-required corridor be 30" wide? And for accessibility, if I add a door for convenience from room A to B, can it be inaccesible, requiring a person with a disability to take a much more circuitous route? Seems discrimatory. (And the concept in a theatre that if a non-disabled person can go from seat to stage without leaving the auditorium and stage, than a person with a disability should also be able to do that, and it's in the standards with words I drafted decades ago.)

The idea of "intended" use, that as one thing is not intended for m.o.e. is a big black hole. If I can evade code requirements by saying a door is not intended for egress, I can as easily claim a stair is not intended for egress, or a toilet not intended to or it's normal uses, or a big room in a school is not intended for assembly. And we all know how diligent owners are in applying for a permit for change of use.

And from the designer's view, look at how much time is saved if all m.o.e. components, required or in addition to what is required, comply with the m.o.e. requirements.
 
What I keep coming back to is what problem is being solved by forcing doors that are not a required exit to comply with the requirement for exits.

The building has already met the minimum standard of safety.

The designer could just block over the door, decreasing the level of actual safety.

Without an exit sign, the only people aware that they can get out of the building through that door will be staff, so we don't have an issue with crowd crush.
 
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