Church capacity

[mtlogcabin]

why is the BO requiring an existing building to be sprinkled?and is the church use (zoning-wise) grandfathered?

My understanding is this is a rebuild after the tornado went through Joplin this summer

"They were trying to rebuild on an existing slab, using existing plumbing. 300 ladies / 75 will be 4 toilets, we only had two in the pre-tornado structure."

 

[alora]

... is this a MO requirement? ...

IBC/IFC requirement.

903.2.1.3, #2.

Of course, that's if there are separate fire areas.

 

[TJacobs]

I'm with the BO and mh

 

[Mr Softy]

My understanding is this is a rebuild after the tornado went through Joplin this summer"They were trying to rebuild on an existing slab, using existing plumbing. 300 ladies / 75 will be 4 toilets, we only had two in the pre-tornado structure."

cool. i see that now. i scanned the replies and missed that the first time.

 

[Frank]

Need to check local provisions on alterations, reconstruction, and repair if it is going back same occupancy footprint and basic design.

In Virginia you could rebuild it just like it was. Of course VA also modified the church sprinkler requirement by deleting the 300 occupant load trigger for churches--kept the other 2.

 

[Jon-Jon]

Is there as section in IBC 2006 where building capacity is set according to parking spaces? I'd say no.

Hey Dwight! was looking for info on a related issue, but ya you'll need to separate the fellowship hall off with a fire barrier. If you're a VB, and you're over the allowable fire area, then you'll need an actual fire wall. Gonna give you a call to ask you a question

 

[e hilton]

Hey jon-jon!!! Yeah man … you need to read a little closer man … this thread is 10 yrs old .

 

[Jon-Jon]

Touche.

 

[ADAguy]

Love the what ifs, it has brought up a lot to consider

 

[Genduct]

An architect here, 2006 IBC:

Consider a typical church, which I have in this case. A group of people gather at a time to worship and study. When they study, they are in classrooms throughout the building. When they worship, they are in an assembly room with fixed pews, dutifully seated with one person every 18" (these are really skinny people). There are some occasions when they will also gather for a fellowship dinner. In typical cases, not everyone who comes for worship services will also be there during class time. In fact, during my 39 years of church design, I've seen that most church's have about a 50% to 60% ratio, class to worship proportion. Some churches will average as high as 80% to 90%. We normally see the same pattern with "all church" dinners, in that there are seldom times when everyone will gather for a dinner; the ratio there for many churches is about 50%, but smaller churches actually can approach 100%.

Now comes my current client. We have an assembly space with seating for 239 at 18" per person. I tabulate each pew individually and round down because if a pew does not fit 8.75 people, I only need to count 8 toward room capacity. When those people go to (or come from) classes, this building has 8 classrooms with a total of 111 capacity, or about 46% of worship attendance. When they fellowship, we have a fellowship hall available the seats 244 (7 sf/person), or about 102% capacity.

The building official says the occupant load for this building is 239+111+244=594 and must be sprinkled. Logic would say that the people in worship are the same people who attend those classes and eat those dinners, so the maximum load is the 239 or 244, largest room capacity, both under the 300 capacity sprinkler trigger.

The local zoning regulation for churches requires 1 car per 6 seats, based upon maximum seating capacity. If I use the 244 capacity, then I'm required to provide 41 spaces; I have 60 spaces. If I must use the total number of people with every room filled at once for total occupancy, then using the 1/6 factor, 594 people on site will require 99 cars. If I eliminate the building, I may be able to fit the extra 39 cars, but that would seem to be a Catch-22.

Given that your congragrants are doing seperate activities in the 3 areas, you don't have 594 individual people. or have I misunderstood your description?

I would ask the Code Official to APPLY and NOT INFLICT the Code and approve and post the Limit for Legal Occupancy that you are designing for. and reasonably expect.
The Code Offical is always welcome to stop by and confirm you are not misrepresenting the situation and Cite you if you are acting in BAD FAITH I certaianly hope you or your conregation does not indulge in Bad Faith

 

[Architect7777]

PA Architect under 2018 IBC
MIssing from the discussions is that many fast-growing churches DO simultaneously use both the sanctuary and the fellowship hall to seat worshipers - they have a video feed in the gym or fellowship hall. Smart zoning officers have the memo and know this. During Covid, a large local church had people sit apart so 2000 seats became 1000 and there were up to 500 in the gym as the same time, but that was 1,500 instead of 2,000 so no issue. However, especially with multi-campus churches who see the speaker on video, church admins see nothing wrong with putting people whereever there is space.

Other churches I know have TWO services going on at the same time - one may be an ethnic church getting started meeting in a fellowship hall. Often this occurs in dying churches who need income, so the combined capacity is less than the total, but I believe with large waves of immigration, this will occur in more prospering churches - I know one just twelve miles from me that has robust Spanish congregation meeting the same time as the English one.

The problem is that robust churches that could seat 250 per the building code's totally unrealistic 18" width per person but whch averages 150 comfortably, have 10 in the nursery plus two workers, and junior church where 40 kids LEAVE the sanctuary at half time to go to their classes are penalized. The real parking need is about 60 spaces - 1:2.5 attendees apart from code is the recognized figure in locations where almost everyone drives. Yet, in a community with a supposedly easier 1:3 parking ratio, you could end up needing double or more of the spaces if the B.O. interprets the need incorrectly.

Thankfully, many zoning boards allow a significant portion of "required" parking to be held in reserve. But on one church I am working for, they STILL require full stormwater management for ALL the spaces if EVER built (rare to actually happen). I have found a number of building officials will listen to actual uses and the way a church operartes, and if they are familiar with the church and its M.O., they will work with you. One counter-argument they use is that the zoning goes with the building, not the church, and the church could sell to a congregation that would use the building to the max. each week, and they do not want to risk ever being in the hot seat, That said, I used to go to a churchseating 1,000 in a community with a 1:2 parking ratio which they actually built (the township building was next door and actually uses some of the lot for themselves - whatdoyado?) and even when they hosted a nationally known music group and the sanctuary was full, the parking lot was only 2/3 full.

 

[Architect7777]

For Code Chronicle - I am just. kid, being a licensed architect for only 44 years and 4 months though I have over 50 years in the business including working for others.

Yankee Chronicler said:
There is no such thing as .75 people, and in over 50 years as an architect I have never seen or heard of rounding a fractional occupant load down. You would have to request that as a modification, and the building official is not required to agree with you.

Sorry to say, but you ALWAYS round down on occupant load on pews. It is absurd to count spaces a person cannot fit in. I go just below a multiple of 18" to reduce the bogus capacity the Code still insists on, WIth today's wide bodies, eighteen inches only works if the audience is at least 50% small children. Real capacity in pews is 22-24" per person per a host of sources and over 70 years in churches. If it came out to 8.75 people in a pew that is 8 for purposes of calculating exits, toilets, parking, etc. I have NEVER had any building official disagree with that. Rounding UP occurs with toilets, parking, etc.

 

[Genduct]

Given that your congragrants are doing seperate activities in the 3 areas, you don't have 594 individual people. or have I misunderstood your description?

I would ask the Code Official to APPLY and NOT INFLICT the Code and approve and post the Limit for Legal Occupancy that you are designing for. and reasonably expect.
The Code Offical is always welcome to stop by and confirm you are not misrepresenting the situation and Cite you if you are acting in BAD FAITH I certaianly hope you or your conregation does not indulge in Bad Faith

Again, your use is similiar if not identical to a School, where the Auditorium and cafeteria are used for differenct function by the same people. Seems this abservation might help put this into perspective.

Given that your congragrants are doing seperate activities in the 3 areas, you don't have 594 individual people. or have I misunderstood your description?

I would ask the Code Official to APPLY and NOT INFLICT the Code and approve and post the Limit for Legal Occupancy that you are designing for. and reasonably expect.
The Code Offical is always welcome to stop by and confirm you are not misrepresenting the situation and Cite you if you are acting in BAD FAITH I certaianly hope you or your conregation does not indulge in Bad Faith

Seems your use is equivalent to use as a school with the auditorium and cafeteria being used by the same people
Perhaps a recon needs to be made at some of the other churches to see if these rules are being applied in a consistent manner
Does the Code Official have some reason to treat you unfairly?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Again, your use is similiar if not identical to a School, where the Auditorium and cafeteria are used for differenct function by the same people. Seems this abservation might help put this into perspective.

Seems your use is equivalent to use as a school with the auditorium and cafeteria being used by the same people
Perhaps a recon needs to be made at some of the other churches to see if these rules are being applied in a consistent manner
Does the Code Official have some reason to treat you unfairly?

But a school assembly spaces are NOT always used by the same people -- and I respectfully submit that the same can be said for a church.

While I graduated from high school a very long time ago, it occasionally happened that there would be a play or concert in the auditorium on the same night that there was a basketball game in the gymnasium. And, since the high school cafeteria was the largest room in town and had the chairs, it was also used for large-ish town meetings, as well as being made available to other organizations. This is why the state was willing to compromise on toilet fixture count, but not on egress. As one of the state officials phrased it in discussing one of the requests for modification, "Nobody ever died because they had to wait to pee."

At the church I attended most recently, the church hall was used as a soup kitchen. They would be serving meals to the homeless at the same time worship services were being conduucted in the sanctuary. You can't count on non-simultaneous occupancy for something as crucial as egress capacity.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Sorry to say, but you ALWAYS round down on occupant load on pews. It is absurd to count spaces a person cannot fit in. I go just below a multiple of 18" to reduce the bogus capacity the Code still insists on, WIth today's wide bodies, eighteen inches only works if the audience is at least 50% small children. Real capacity in pews is 22-24" per person per a host of sources and over 70 years in churches. If it came out to 8.75 people in a pew that is 8 for purposes of calculating exits, toilets, parking, etc. I have NEVER had any building official disagree with that. Rounding UP occurs with toilets, parking, etc.

No. Perhaps you always round down. I always round up, because (a) that's what I think the code requires, and (b) because I don't think there's a code official in my state that would allow me to round down. Quite simply, there is nothing in the code that allows you to round down. The 18 inches per person is an average. You have acknowledged that seating may include children, so I can see no valid argument for rounding down.

1004.6 Fixed seating. For areas having fixed seats and aisles, the occupant load shall be determined by the number of fixed seats installed therein. The occupant load for areas in which fixed seating is not installed, such as waiting spaces, shall be determined in accordance with Section 1004.5 and added to
the number of fixed seats.

The occupant load of wheelchair spaces and the associated companion seat shall be based on one occupant for each wheelchair space and one occupant for the associated companion seat provided in accordance with Section 1109.2.3.

For areas having fixed seating without dividing arms, the occupant load shall be not less than the number of seats based on one person for each 18 inches (457 mm) of seating length.

And the section introducing how to calculate occupant load doesn't allow any reductions from what the code calls for, only allowing HIGHER occupant loads when and where there is sufficient egress capacity provided.

1004.5.1 Increased occupant load. The occupant load permitted in any building, or portion thereof, is permitted to be increased from that number established for the occupancies in Table 1004.5, provided that all other requirements of the code are met based on such modified number and the occupant load does not exceed one occupant per 7 square feet (0.65 m2) of occupiable floor space. Where required by the building official, an approved aisle, seating or fixed equipment diagram substantiating any increase in occupant load shall be submitted. Where required by the building official, such diagram shall be posted.

 

[bill1952]

I agree with YC that the code doesn't allow rounding down. I have wondered if it allows summing the total length of bench (undivided like classic pews or bleachers) or if it has to be section by section. Ultimately, it seems rare to actually make much difference in egress, just rarely that close.

From my code development work, the 18" is kept basically for kids on bleachers - which can exceed 1 per 18".

I agree with YC that the assembly spaces in a school are not always used by same group of occupants. I always have tried to zone the circulation around the auditorium to allow it's use independent of the school day use for outside groups and other schools in the district used.

 

[Genduct]

But a school assembly spaces are NOT always used by the same people -- and I respectfully submit that the same can be said for a church.

While I graduated from high school a very long time ago, it occasionally happened that there would be a play or concert in the auditorium on the same night that there was a basketball game in the gymnasium. And, since the high school cafeteria was the largest room in town and had the chairs, it was also used for large-ish town meetings, as well as being made available to other organizations. This is why the state was willing to compromise on toilet fixture count, but not on egress. As one of the state officials phrased it in discussing one of the requests for modification, "Nobody ever died because they had to wait to pee."

At the church I attended most recently, the church hall was used as a soup kitchen. They would be serving meals to the homeless at the same time worship services were being conduucted in the sanctuary. You can't count on non-simultaneous occupancy for something as crucial as egress capacity.

You make a good and valid point!
Also. I suspect you'll agree that the "E" Use reflects a higher Risk, given the age of the Young People, So the idea of an accommodation is not really sticking their Code Neck Out but a discernment of the Intent of the Code

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I agree with YC that the code doesn't allow rounding down. I have wondered if it allows summing the total length of bench (undivided like classic pews or bleachers) or if it has to be section by section. Ultimately, it seems rare to actually make much difference in egress, just rarely that close.

Given that the 18 inches is a consensus dimension based on a hypothetical average adult's hip width, I'm inclined to think that it would be permissible to total up the length of pews or bleacher rows and then apply the 1:18 ratio to the total.

 

[bill1952]

I only laid out a few spaces with undivided seats. Most contemporary churches I worked on prefer theatre style seating, because no one complains at an average of 21" chairs but they do complain at less than 22 to 24" on pews. That's like 5-10% less space for seating, better proximity audience to presentation, and possibly less egress width and fewer plumbing fixtures. Doesn't mean much in the 1000 seat facility but in the 5000-10,000 seat place, big deal.

 

[Genduct]

Given that the 18 inches is a consensus dimension based on a hypothetical average adult's hip width, I'm inclined to think that it would be permissible to total up the length of pews or bleacher rows and then apply the 1:18 ratio to the total.

Hello Yankee, just measured my out to out of my office chair!
Seems our "standards may need to be adjusted
The "average male adult is no longer 5'-8" and 120 lbs given my office chair is 24" out to out
Don't remember. ever seeing my church with standing room only and people cheek to jowl.

Think the ICC needs to revisit this area standard?

 

[Yikes]

The 18"/person pew rule was developed not only when people were smaller in girth, but also in an ear when church culture was that mom and dad and their 2 kids sat in the same pew, so kids took up less than 18". Families owned just one car and they all drove together. In protestant churches, the kids were dismissed partway through the church service to go to "Sunday School", freeing up more pew space.

Here are my general practices, with exceptions when the situation warrants it. I often will end up with different occupant counts for different code compliance purposes (not unlike how I can end up with different building areas depending on whether I am using the building code or zoning code methodologies of building area) and I state all methodologies on the plans.

Zoning / parking:
Most zoning codes in my rea assume one parking space per 4 occupants.
Depending on the demographics of the church, that is either really under-parked (if there's a big youth group in an affluent suburb) or way too much parking (if the congregation is aging or is in a more secular community).
As an architect, I negotiate aggressively with the local planning department to keep it 1:4 when adding facilities, then leave it to my client to decide if they want more parking than that. Anything less than 1:4 typically requires a parking study to justify. By "aggressive", I meant that I round down on a per-pew basis, solely for parking stall count, and I transparently sate this on the front page of the plans.
worth noting that our state just passed laws allowing churches to allow their underutilized land (typically parking lots) to be repurposed for affordable housing, regardless of local zoning restrictions.

Plumbing Fixture count: Again, for purposes of plan check I will size it to the minimum, just so we know what that is. But I typically recommend 1.5x to 2x the minimum for my clients, as a real-world convenience, if they can afford it.

Exiting / MOE : for purposes of sizing exits, I will not go below 18" per person in pews, and I DO assume simultaneous occupancy of accessory spaces (Sunday School classrooms, fellowship hall, etc.).
I agree that you don't calc the occupant load per pew. You first sum the total of all inches of all pews together, then divide that single summed number by 18, and round up that final number.

 

[bill1952]

Yikes, how do you plan parking when the church has 2 services in a row, and a food court, so you know the seat count is not accurate?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Hello Yankee, just measured my out to out of my office chair!
Seems our "standards may need to be adjusted
The "average male adult is no longer 5'-8" and 120 lbs given my office chair is 24" out to out
Don't remember. ever seeing my church with standing room only and people cheek to jowl.

Think the ICC needs to revisit this area standard?

Submit a code change proposal and then go to the annual meeting to speak in support of your proposal.

Until the code is revised, it says what it says. Our job -- as architects or as code officials, plan reviewers, or inspectors -- is to apply the code as written. If we start making ad hoc "allowances" be cause we disagree with what the code requires, the result is anarchy.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Yikes, how do you plan parking when the church has 2 services in a row, and a food court, so you know the seat count is not accurate?

You follow the zoning code. The building code doesn't address how many parking spaces a building must have -- for any occupancy classification. The building code only establishes the minimum number of accessible parking spaces, and that's a percentage of the total number of spaces.