Do You Cite Code Sections for Every Violation?

[SCBO1]

Thermopan

 

[mark handler]

Same here, never seen the HVAC man with a code book.

By the way, "thermopan" comes with red print for a reason young man!

And sometimes Blue ….

 

[SCBO1]

Last week while doing a final inspection I put down on the report:
(1) Plumbing not complete!
(2) Electrical not complete!

Should I have listed everything that the plumber and electrician needed to complete with code violations?

Plumbing: Kitchen sink, no trap, no shuts offs, no pig and no DW drain connection. WH not set, washer trap missing. W
Plumber left at 3:30 pm, they said he had to go feed his cat?
Who do I charge for wasting the city's time?
Electrical: Let's not waste your valuable time on this.

In this case: Code violation reference not necessary, work performed, well....kinda necessary!

Homeowner, "Can we move in?"

I wonder if areas that are influenced by union trades will meet the code more, like Chicago and Pennsyltucky?

 

[e hilton]

I think just saying the work is not complete is sufficient, but if you saw something that looked like they thought it was compkete and was wrong, you could have called that out.

 

[JBI]

Maybe this discussion should change to home inspectors forcing home sellers to change out FPE panels and adding GFCI so they can sell their home.

Home inspectors are a different story altogether. There are 2 words that do not belong in a home inspectors vocabulary and should NEVER be in a home inspection report... 'code' and 'violation'. These are not a function of a home inspection.

 

[jar546]

Home inspectors are a different story altogether. There are 2 words that do not belong in a home inspectors vocabulary and should NEVER be in a home inspection report... 'code' and 'violation'. These are not a function of a home inspection.

Well, finally something we disagree on. There is a difference between pointing out a code violation (based on year of construction/renovation) as a basis for validity in a home inspection and writing up a code violation as though you are the AHJ. Violations are still an issue and need to be documented when it is your job to point them out.

 

[SCBO1]

My real estate friend calls Home Inspectors "Deal Killers!"

I was talking to a resident here and he claimed the Home Inspector listed in his report that the garage has to have GFCI protected receptacles. The house was built in 1950. My calculation, that would have been the 1949 UBC or early?? if there was a code used, I don't believe this city used codes back then. Surprised he did't make him put in a fire sprinkler system, carbon monoxide and radon tester?

Where's Glenn when you need him??
Was there a 1949 UBC?

 

[JBI]

Well, finally something we disagree on. There is a difference between pointing out a code violation (based on year of construction/renovation) as a basis for validity in a home inspection and writing up a code violation as though you are the AHJ. Violations are still an issue and need to be documented when it is your job to point them out.

Jeff, a home inspector has no authority to determine what may or may not be a 'violation' (see Pcinspector1 post#55), the AHJ has sole authority to make that determination.
However a GOOD home inspector can identify a potential problem with out the use of the word 'violation'.
As an example, I was doing a home inspection and the home was built after NYS had adopted a statewide code which required 'emergency egress windows'. The home had none in the bedrooms.
My report suggested that it would be difficult in an emergency for someone to climb out of what were essentially transom style windows high on the wall. I then suggested replacing at least one window in each bedroom to facilitate emergency escape and recommended contacting the local AHJ for any requirements that might need to be met.
I knew the exact code sections to quote in both the code at the time of construction as well as the new code sections. My job was not to quote code or cite violations, my job was to identify possible hazards or areas of concern.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I took a seminar for home inspectors once that a home inspection ran for recruiting new people just because I was interested. It was only two hours long and gave us a check list. Codes where never mentioned (or EER's, GFCI"s, stairway dimensions, etc). Mostly concerned with hand rails, open j boxes, leaking roofs, mold, rot, vents and working HVAC and plumbing. No cert required or anything else for the inspector or company.

 

[SCBO1]

I lived in my previous home for over 24 years and raise to children. The Homie inspector got me for an undersized $125.00 dollar A/C circuit, a radon vent system @$750.00, a crack in the brick veneer @1,500.00 and a rotten $30.00 cedar 6x6 guard rail post that codes did not require. If I didn't correct the items I stood to loose the sales contract, so I took care of the items.

What a racket!
I think the legal term is extortion.

I've had the Homie's call here and ask If I require the FPE breaker panels need to be removed? On occasion they will ask what year a house was built in?

"Deal Killers!"

 

[tmurray]

When a police officer issues a ticket or arrests somebody they always cite the law. Why should the building inspectors be different.

In response to the comments that resist citing the code because of staffing levels I would offer a couple of perspectives.

In California and I expect most other places the building department can increase the permit fees to pay for adequate staffing. So if you have a problem with the work load talk with management or is it easier to take it out on the applicant.

Also remember that building department seem to have no problem with imposing additional administrative requirements on the applicant. The hours waiting in line or just waiting for the plan checker to get to a project. So why should you expect sympathy from those impacted by your requirements.

Also remember as an engineer I am not excused from complying with a regulation because I do not know where to find it.

Can you take someone to court based sole off an inspection report? When a police officer writes a ticket, there is a court date at the bottom. This is what the ticket is designed to do. To go to court.

The courts in Canada have been careful to distinguish searches arising from the criminal code and subsequent ticketing with those arising out of administrative law and subsequent inspection reports. To me, and maybe it's different here than other places, equating a police ticket to a building inspection report tells me the person doesn't understand what at least one of the documents do.

I cannot take someone to court based on an inspection report. It is not a legally enforceable document. It is essentially the opinion of the inspector. Our next step is to issue a correction order, which does have a code section on it.

 

[SCBO1]

This morning, a friend let me read his Home Inspection report. I told him, "it was a good report" with photo's including explanations. The HI found problems and reported them, that's his job, did not cite code violations, which IMO is the correct way the HI should present the findings. Cracked flue liner, SD's older than 10 years and not working properly and other issues were noted. Actually, I was impressed with the HI's software, very up to date, I think I'll look into some report software, my typing and auto corrections... not so good.

 

[jar546]

When I was a home inspector, I was also ICC certified as a residential building inspector. Private owners would hire me to inspect their homes being built, even though there were "official" code inspection under their permit. At no time with all of inspections that I did was there ever one house that had code violations which were already signed off as "passed" by the code inspector. I always scheduled my inspection right after the code inspector. I routinely reported the actual code violations that were overlooked and if I were to do that type of work, I would do it the same way. You can't write up a deficiency on new construction without validating it to a code section. Like it or not (and most inspectors I was coming in behind did not) that is the way I chose to do it because it was the right thing to do.

In addition, as expert witness for homeowners who had construction defects, it was my duty and obligation to cite code sections for the violations that were overlooked by the code inspector. There is a place for everything. Code officials don't own the codes, they are for the public and should be referred to in order to describe and validate a violation.

 

[ICE]

When I purchased my home I was required to sign dozens of documents when they accepted my offer. One document was an instruction that I was not allowed to let any government official in any capacity to have access to the property.

 

[tmurray]

Home inspector companies and claiming things are 'code violations" was a big problem for the first couple years I was with my current employer. We did all the inspections for an owner during the build and then a year later she decided to sell. A home inspector cited the lack of 5/8" Type X drywall on the garage side of the wall between the garage and the house as a code violation. When she called, she demanded to know why we missed this violation. I told here that there is no requirement for a fire separation between a house and an attached garage with a capacity of 5 or fewer vehicles. "What do I do now" she asked me. I told her to ask the home inspector for the code violation. I also told her that if he can find a provision that requires that, the Town will pay to have the sheetrock installed. She hung up from me very happy.

Next day or so, I get a call. It's the home inspector. To my surprise he actually owns a code. The way the fire separation section breaks down in our code for a garage and adjacent occupancy is:

1. a storage garage needs a 2hr separation
2. If the storage garage has a capacity of 5 or less, 1.5hr is required
3. if the garage is attached to a dwelling unit, and is intended for the sole use of that dwelling unit, the fire separation required in sentence 2 need not apply.

I argued with a home inspector for 20 minutes that the words "need not apply" meant that sentence 2 doesn't apply. He still didn't believe me at the end. Here is how it ended:

Him: Well, you say it's not required and I say it is, so who makes the ultimate determination.
Me: I do.
Him: That seems awfully convenient.
Me: It sure is for me.

I have worked with amazing home inspectors that have picked up serious life safety issues in existing homes, but they are definitely the exception to the rule.

 

[JCraver]

I've been here 5-1/2 years, never spoke to a home inspector. RE agents and appraisers, but never a home inspector.

 

[SCBO1]

I've been here 5-1/2 years, never spoke to a home inspector. RE agents and appraisers, but never a home inspector.

It's a treat!

I've had a couple HI's ask when a house was built. Then the ol question: "Do you require the FPE panel to be removed?"

If it was installed to code when it was installed I can't make someone take it out! If it's your opinion it has defects, that's your call buddy as a HI, but don't exclaim the "City Inspector said "it's gotta come out!" cuz I'm not saying that! "capeesh"

 

[Mark K]

While there are differences between criminal law and civil law in other cases the government is acting against the recipient of the citation. This imposes an obligation on the recipient and limits his freedom to act and costs him money.

Why should the building inspector have the ability to impose costa on the building owner without any authority? The fat that at a later level of the enforcement process a code section will be provided is of little consequence to the building owner since it is often cheaper for the building owner to pay the extortion than to deal with the delays.

By the way you or I cannot take a speeding ticket to court. It is the legal system that takes action against the recipient of the ticket.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

What's wrong with FPE panels? Had to replace one years ago in a mobile home because I could not get any replacement breakers.

 

[SCBO1]

What's wrong with FPE panels?

Rick, I don't want to post any legal stuff: You can research: New Jersey court case against Federal Pacific Electric for more information. I'n not staying between the lines of this topic, bro.

 

[tmurray]

While there are differences between criminal law and civil law in other cases the government is acting against the recipient of the citation.

I want to be clear, I am not talking about civil law. I am talking about administrative law. I really have no idea how this is impacted or impacts rights between two parties.

A citation is a writ from the courts or a ticket. It is the start of a court process. I can do this as a by-law enforcement officer (the ticket part), but cannot do this as a building official. So, the building owner is not getting a citation from me.

Why should the building inspector have the ability to impose cost on the building owner without any authority?

I do have authority whether I am citing code or not. I am an appointed building official. I am following the requirements set into place for the administration of administrative law. Everything else is someone's opinion. You think people should have to have code sections? That's fine. Go ahead and cite them. I really don't care.

The fat that at a later level of the enforcement process a code section will be provided is of little consequence to the building owner since it is often cheaper for the building owner to pay the extortion than to deal with the delays.

I think you are making an assumption that the requirements are not in the code. Otherwise it is not "extortion" it is me doing my job.


Ultimately, unless you are required by a statute/act/law to provide a code section every time, it is up to the department whether they want to provide one or not. This ultimately has an effect on level of service and the fee structure of the department. These items need to be carefully considered and should not be a "one size" fits all answer.

 

[SCBO1]

A citation is a writ from the courts or a ticket. It is the start of a court process. I can do this as a by-law enforcement officer (the ticket part), but cannot do this as a building official. So, the building owner is not getting a citation from me.

That's how I see it, the summons or ticket starts the court process.

Slight twist here: I'm also the Building Official/Code Enforcement Officer and can right you a summons to court.

 

[fatboy]

I have said this before, I will be happy to provide sections when asked. I am not "extorting" anything, i am doing my job in the most cost/time effective manner.

If I had to do it, it would cut my inspection stops in half, and I would probably be a jerk about it, and ONLY give them the section number, "must comply with 303.2. Then they DO have to go buy a code book and figure it out themselves, rather than me giving them specific instruction.

Careful what you ask for.

 

[e hilton]

When I purchased my home I was required to sign dozens of documents when they accepted my offer. One document was an instruction that I was not allowed to let any government official in any capacity to have access to the property.

I have bought homes in texas and va, and never had that come up.