mark handler
SAWHORSE
Easier to copy and paste.... ICC and IAPMO websites are more difficult
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When did UpCodes change?
- Thread starter Yankee Chronicler
- Start date
Yankee Chronicler
SAWHORSE
Yes, and when you click to sign up for free, you get to a page offering a free TWO WEEK TRIAL. And to sign up for that you have to provide a credit card number.
Gary2000
REGISTERED
Hey folks,
UpCodes cofounder here. I want to comment on some things:
1) ALL codes on UpCodes are free. We have a premium tier also but not for viewing the law, that's for stuff like the Copilot AI assistant, Assemblies, UpCodes-created diagrams, etc.
@Yankee Chronicler the UI can probably be improved to make it more obvious, but that's not a paywall in your screenshot, that's like the cover page of the code. If you click a chapter, then you should see the code. For some codes, it'll ask you to create a free account - it won't prompt you for a credit card or anything like that. For example, say you're in Alabama, try clicking any of the codes, then clicking on a chapter. If you experience any issues with that, hit us up at support@up.codes.
2) Yes, ICC does provide the code for free .... now. But think about before UpCodes came on the scene and started giving the law for free (and taking incredible heat with multiple publishers hell bent on killing us in the courts and failing), how many of the publishers were giving free access pre-2015? Competition is good for the market and the law should be free. Since UpCodes started posting laws for free, multiple publishers have responded by rolling out their own free viewers. If UpCodes went away, would the publishers continue giving free access or opt to make more money and higher exec salaries (currently the CEOs of many of the big publishers get $1M+ )?
3) After failing in the courts, they've turned to Congress to try to put us out of business. Since 2022 they've been pushing the Pro Codes Act, but fortunately Congress has so far upheld what the Supreme Court said in 2020: "No one can own the law" (Chief Justice Roberts). We could use your help, please consider contacting your rep to let them know your view on private ownership of the law on that page. The argument for Pro Codes is that the publishers need to have copyright over the law to stay in business but in fact, they're making more money than they ever have (just check their 990s: ICC, NFPA).
4) In terms of accuracy, we have a ~35 person Content Team who's full time job is QAing and integrating amendments / errata / etc. in the codes (for the first time ever in many cases). When ICC lost the first ruling trying to get an injunction to shut us down in 2020, a couple days later, they filed a false advertising lawsuit where they pointed out fewer than 2 dozen issues on our site (one of which they had on their own site). We responded by doing a study of errors and out-of-date code on their site in summer 2020 pointing out 400+ issues, you can see the findings here. Again, that's why it's good to not have 1 private organization have a monopoly over the law itself. Innovation is needed.
UpCodes cofounder here. I want to comment on some things:
1) ALL codes on UpCodes are free. We have a premium tier also but not for viewing the law, that's for stuff like the Copilot AI assistant, Assemblies, UpCodes-created diagrams, etc.
@Yankee Chronicler the UI can probably be improved to make it more obvious, but that's not a paywall in your screenshot, that's like the cover page of the code. If you click a chapter, then you should see the code. For some codes, it'll ask you to create a free account - it won't prompt you for a credit card or anything like that. For example, say you're in Alabama, try clicking any of the codes, then clicking on a chapter. If you experience any issues with that, hit us up at support@up.codes.
2) Yes, ICC does provide the code for free .... now. But think about before UpCodes came on the scene and started giving the law for free (and taking incredible heat with multiple publishers hell bent on killing us in the courts and failing), how many of the publishers were giving free access pre-2015? Competition is good for the market and the law should be free. Since UpCodes started posting laws for free, multiple publishers have responded by rolling out their own free viewers. If UpCodes went away, would the publishers continue giving free access or opt to make more money and higher exec salaries (currently the CEOs of many of the big publishers get $1M+ )?
3) After failing in the courts, they've turned to Congress to try to put us out of business. Since 2022 they've been pushing the Pro Codes Act, but fortunately Congress has so far upheld what the Supreme Court said in 2020: "No one can own the law" (Chief Justice Roberts). We could use your help, please consider contacting your rep to let them know your view on private ownership of the law on that page. The argument for Pro Codes is that the publishers need to have copyright over the law to stay in business but in fact, they're making more money than they ever have (just check their 990s: ICC, NFPA).
4) In terms of accuracy, we have a ~35 person Content Team who's full time job is QAing and integrating amendments / errata / etc. in the codes (for the first time ever in many cases). When ICC lost the first ruling trying to get an injunction to shut us down in 2020, a couple days later, they filed a false advertising lawsuit where they pointed out fewer than 2 dozen issues on our site (one of which they had on their own site). We responded by doing a study of errors and out-of-date code on their site in summer 2020 pointing out 400+ issues, you can see the findings here. Again, that's why it's good to not have 1 private organization have a monopoly over the law itself. Innovation is needed.
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Yankee Chronicler
SAWHORSE
That's how it used to work. As of the last week of August, I no longer have access, and I am unable to create a "free" account with entering a valid credit card number.
Irrelevant
Irrelevant. This discussion is about UpCodes claiming to offer free access but requiring a credit card number in order to obtain that "free" access.
Irrelevant. This discussion is about UpCodes claiming to offer free access but requiring a credit card number in order to obtain that "free" access.
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arwat23
SAWHORSE
This is my major concern and why I (mostly) like UpCodes. I think it's safe to say that ICC and other publishers would prefer codes not be free. They're a business, a monopolistic business at that, and, as such, need to make money. If they were the only ones able to publish code, physical or digital, then why wouldn't they use that power to make it so everyone needs to pay no matter what? I mean, if I were responsible for making the most amount of money possible (the point of most private businesses), I would 100% do that if I could do whatever I wanted to the thing that an entire industry relies on. And I'd jack up the price of any subscription. What're you, the average architect, going to do about that? Can't get code anywhere else. As long as ICC doesn't piss off the government, there's no reason they'd not do whatever they want to do.
That's, of course, assuming half of all architects actually looked at a code book...
Look at any monopolistic business and you'll see exactly that. Nvidia is the most recent example I can think of - no one makes AI chips as good as they do. They have a 1,000% markup on their AI chips because... why not? No one is competing with them, and an entire industry relies on them.
Getting back on topic though... I have a free account. I still have access to my state's codes. No two week trial required. Gary2000 isn't lying as far as I see.
Edit: just accessed the codes on my phone without an account... No issues. Wasn't even prompted to create an account.
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Yankee Chronicler
SAWHORSE
I had free access to the basic tier for several years -- until last week. As of last week (I think around Tuesday or Wednesday, but I don't remember for certain) I could access the index page for each state, but when I tried to open a specific code for any state -- including my home state -- I was kicked over to a nag screen telling me I had to create an account -- and then requiring a credit card number to create a "free" account.
And, as of 18:15 today (EDT) -- I again have access.
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arwat23
SAWHORSE
Now that I think about it, I think I had a similar issue a few months ago... I believe that I couldn't look at any of the codes without an account (didn't require a subscription, just needed an account). That lasted for a few days maybe. I ended up just making an account because I wanted to try the premium subscription, just to see how it was. I could be misremembering the whole thing, but I remember vividly someone else in our office not being able to access UpCodes without an account around 4 or 5 months ago.
If my memory is correct, it's odd that this seems to be happening for some people and not others.
Gary2000
REGISTERED
@Yankee Chronicler glad to hear you have access again, our support is very responsive, so feel free to ping them if that's ever not the case.
For those other topics that seem irrelevant, I was just responding to things already brought up in this thread, hope it didn't seem like I was trying to derail the conversation!
@arwat23 you memory is correct! You still need a free account (30s to make, no credit card) for a bunch of the codes on our site. For example, this one. For other codes, you do not need a free account, like the building code. There's been no changes to that in almost 2 years now, so you might have been on some codes needing it, some not needing it.
For those other topics that seem irrelevant, I was just responding to things already brought up in this thread, hope it didn't seem like I was trying to derail the conversation!
@arwat23 you memory is correct! You still need a free account (30s to make, no credit card) for a bunch of the codes on our site. For example, this one. For other codes, you do not need a free account, like the building code. There's been no changes to that in almost 2 years now, so you might have been on some codes needing it, some not needing it.
arwat23
SAWHORSE
Ah, that'll do it. I'm pretty sure it was either the California Plumbing or Electrical Code I couldn't access.
Time flies... It's already been 2 years since that changed? Felt like like 6 months until you mentioned that lol.
Yankee Chronicler
SAWHORSE
Unbelievable!
Just received an e-mail from UpCodes support::
Cool! So I click on "View Message" and I get:
So to read the message with the link that allows reading the codes without an account ... requires an account.
You can't make this [bleep] up.
Just received an e-mail from UpCodes support::
Cool! So I click on "View Message" and I get:
So to read the message with the link that allows reading the codes without an account ... requires an account.
You can't make this [bleep] up.
danSAA
REGISTERED
Just my two cents, I'm in California so only need those codes. I like to keep notes in my code and have quick access bookmarks, so PDF is the only (free) way for me. I download from internet archive: https://archive.org/search?query=subject:"2022+California+Building+Codes" which I believe is sourced through https://public.resource.org/ , also fighting the good fight for free access to the law.
The internet archive PDFs are a bit clunky, so I download the scans, post process to reduce file size and redo the OCR. When addenda are published, those PDFs are free and I collate the changes into my PDF.
The internet archive PDFs are a bit clunky, so I download the scans, post process to reduce file size and redo the OCR. When addenda are published, those PDFs are free and I collate the changes into my PDF.
arwat23
SAWHORSE
That message doesn't say anything about not needing an account. It just says you don't need a premium account. An account is still needed for some codes.
Edit: Apparently I can't read your message correctly... Disregard
.
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wwhitney
REGISTERED
Have you ever created an account on up.codes? If not, then as mentioned some codes do require a free account for access, but no credit card is required.
If you end up at https://up.codes/sign-up you can create an account. When you complete that it takes you to a further page that appears to only offer options for paid subscriptions. However, at this point you are already signed in. You can simply ignore this page and proceed to https://up.codes to start using the free service.
I agree that this second web page should have, at least in small print at the bottom, a link that says "no thanks, just take me to the free offerings."
At least, the above is what I experienced just now using a new private browsing window, so none of my stored state for my regular account should have affected the experience.
Cheers, Wayne
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Gary2000
REGISTERED
Yup, that works too.
Alternatively, any code you're trying to access that needs an account, will have a message asking you to sign up for a free account. And because we know you're trying to sign up for free account, we don't even give you the option to select a plan or put in a credit card.
@Yankee Chronicler do you mind me asking which code you are trying to access?
For example, if you wanted to see the CT's adoption of the building code, that does not need a free account and should look like this:
If you're trying to see CT's adoption of the NFPA 70, 2020, that does need a free account and you should see this:
We try to make it abundantly clear here that only a free account is used. And if you then click on "Create free account", you will not be prompted for a credit card.
One thing to note: I clicked on a chapter here. In a previous message where you shared a screenshot, I think you may have thought the "cover page" of the code was a paywall (we'll have to think if we can make that more clear in the UI).
Gary2000
REGISTERED
@Yankee Chronicler I think there may have been some miscommunication on our part, so I've given that feedback to our support specialist. I think she was trying to explain the difference between the paid tier (credit card, 2-week free trial) and free tier (no credit card required), but perhaps could have been clearer. My apologies for that.
But you do need an account, so that part is right.
So can you try these steps:
1) If you go here
2) then click "Create free account"
3) then on the next page, fill out the fields and hit "Create account"
4) then you will be redirected to a new page and asked to retrieve a code from your email (for security, to verify you really own that email and it's not an imposter)
5) enter that code into the box
Now you should be redirected to see Chapter 1 of CT's adoption of the NFPA 70, 2020 and all codes should be viewable for free. Feel free to DM me if you have issues with that!
Yankee Chronicler
SAWHORSE
Why?
Your argument against the ICC is that codes are laws, and laws should be free. I don't need an account to look up laws on Cornell's legal web site. I don't need an account to look up statutes on any state's web site, or to look up the U.S. Code on the federal government's web site.
arwat23
SAWHORSE
That's a valid point. The account is free so it's technically not incorrect to say they are providing the law for free (account or not, you're not spending money), but why need an account for some codes but not others?
Gary2000
REGISTERED
Good question about why the building code adoptions are no account needed, but the one above, NEC, needs an account.
On that topic, the only thing I'm going to say is: the parties have resolved the Pending Litigation on mutually agreeable terms.
And @arwat23 you're right, the codes are still all free, just to be clear, which is indeed our position. You can print them, you can copy / paste, you can view them all for free, you can quote sections of the law without our permission (unlike the publishers' sites, hence why freedom of the press organization are on our side - journalists want to be able to quote the law without fear of repercussions). There's codes we host even today where the publishers haven't responded with their own free (restricted) viewer and where we're the only place to get the law for free (example).
On that topic, the only thing I'm going to say is: the parties have resolved the Pending Litigation on mutually agreeable terms.
And @arwat23 you're right, the codes are still all free, just to be clear, which is indeed our position. You can print them, you can copy / paste, you can view them all for free, you can quote sections of the law without our permission (unlike the publishers' sites, hence why freedom of the press organization are on our side - journalists want to be able to quote the law without fear of repercussions). There's codes we host even today where the publishers haven't responded with their own free (restricted) viewer and where we're the only place to get the law for free (example).