Do I need a licensed plumber/electrician for minor adjustments and repairs?

[chadl]

Hi,

I’m remodeling a bathroom in Indiana and was curious how much electrical and plumbing work I can do before a license would be required.

Can I run a wire from a light switch to a new bathroom fan without needing a licensed electrician to pass the inspection?

Can I move a 1/2” copper water line back 3” to fit a new shower or does a licensed plumber have to do it?

If these tasks and similar ones like it require other licensed specialists to perform them, how can I stay competitive in my estimate when I have to pay premiums for minor repair work? Can I still do the work myself and have an electrician or plumber sign off on it for a fee?

Thank you!

 

[ICE]

I am not familiar with the laws of Indiana. It sounds as though you might be getting paid for work that you are not familiar with.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Hi,

I’m remodeling a bathroom in Indiana and was curious how much electrical and plumbing work I can do before a license would be required.

The model IRC includes a section that spells out what work can be performed without a permit. Indiana deleted that when they adopted the IRC, so I have no way of knowing what you are or are not allowed to do without having the respective trade licenses. As a general comment:

Can I run a wire from a light switch to a new bathroom fan without needing a licensed electrician to pass the inspection?

Can I move a 1/2” copper water line back 3” to fit a new shower or does a licensed plumber have to do it?

If these tasks and similar ones like it require other licensed specialists to perform them, how can I stay competitive in my estimate when I have to pay premiums for minor repair work? Can I still do the work myself and have an electrician or plumber sign off on it for a fee?

Thank you!

The work you are describing is not "minor repair" work -- it is alteration work. Indiana did not delete the definition of "Repair":

[RB] Repair​

The reconstruction, replacement or renewal of any part of an existing building for the purpose of its maintenance or to correct damage.

[RB] Alteration​

Any construction, retrofit or renovation to an existing structure or addition that requires a permit. Also, a change in a building, electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system that involves an extension, addition or change to the arrangement, type or purpose of the original installation that requires a permit.

 

[Scipio]

Google Search

This may help you.

Andy.

 

[chadl]

I am not familiar with the laws of Indiana. It sounds as though you might be getting paid for work that you are not familiar with.

The nature of the work isn’t anything new or unfamiliar, but the inspection process is. I think I’m just going to use my plumber and electrician on this one and ask my inspector some questions during the process. Then I’ll have a better idea on where my scope of work should end and another licensed professionals should begin.

 

[steveray]

Licensing laws vary by State....Here a homeowner can do any work on their house with no license....But they need permits....and inspections...and reinspections...and some more reinspections...

 

[BN4537]

Can I run a wire from a light switch to a new bathroom fan without needing a licensed electrician to pass the inspection?

No, you would need to be licensed. Unless your building department is weird.

Can I move a 1/2” copper water line back 3” to fit a new shower or does a licensed plumber have to do it?

No, you would need to be licensed. Unless your building department is weird.

If these tasks and similar ones like it require other licensed specialists to perform them, how can I stay competitive in my estimate when I have to pay premiums for minor repair work?

Two options:

(1) You decide if you want to be the cheap guy and try not to get caught. It's a method, but it will trap you at the bottom because you will mainly get the cheapskates as customers and won't be able to afford to do really high quality work. You will have to outcompete the lowest common denominator, and it is hard to do that ethically. You will be working harder for less money.

(2) You unapologetically charge more and tell your clients up front that you will cost more because you are a high-end contractor, do everything on the up-and-up, and you take pride in your work. Tell them that they will get what they pay for. You don't stop talking then, you then tell them that they can go with some unlicensed good-ole-boy, but it will probably end up costing more to get a good product when they need to hire someone else to come in later to clean up the mess. Have inexpensive contractors you can recommend in a "they aren't great but they're cheap" kinda way.

A tactic that can be effective is to take the time out while you have them on the phone to warn potential customers about contractors getting paid before they finish and bailing on the project, and warning them about contractors working without a permit, getting caught, and bailing the project to avoid enforcement, leaving the owner to have to hire someone to tear out the stuff that is wrong and re-do it or face enforcement from the AHJ. Being nice enough to look out for people who may not hire you will make a good impression, and if the guy they do hire takes them for a ride, they will remember you next time they want to hire someone.

Can I still do the work myself and have an electrician or plumber sign off on it for a fee?

It's not strictly legal, but no one can stop you. License sharers rarely check things thoroughly enough to catch issues, and that makes a mockery of the reason licenses are required. I will note that it is much safer to do this on plumbing, unless a torch is involved. With electrical, if the house burns down for something totally unrelated to what you did, you are not unlikely to still be blamed because juries and many fire investigators don't understand electricity - it may not even be an electrical fire to begin with. With electrical, it's not about who is right, it's about who can demonstrate having the most certifications and having more convincing expert witnesses to back you up.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Can I run a wire from a light switch to a new bathroom fan without needing a licensed electrician to pass the inspection?

No, you would need to be licensed. Unless your building department is weird.

Can I move a 1/2” copper water line back 3” to fit a new shower or does a licensed plumber have to do it?

No, you would need to be licensed. Unless your building department is weird.

Are your answers based on Indiana laws and regulations, or are you generalizing? My state would also require licensed tradesmen for both, but if I can't cite Indiana laws to back it up I'm not prepared to tell chadl that he needs licensed tradesmen in Indiana.

Can I still do the work myself and have an electrician or plumber sign off on it for a fee?

It's not strictly legal, but no one can stop you. License sharers rarely check things thoroughly enough to catch issues, and that makes a mockery of the reason licenses are required. I will note that it is much safer to do this on plumbing, unless a torch is involved. With electrical, if the house burns down for something totally unrelated to what you did, you are not unlikely to still be blamed because juries and many fire investigators don't understand electricity - it may not even be an electrical fire to begin with. With electrical, it's not about who is right, it's about who can demonstrate having the most certifications and having more convincing expert witnesses to back you up.

It's most likely not legal at all. If the law requires licensed tradesmen, I'm sure the law requires that the licensed tradesmen actually perform the work, not "sign off" (whatever that means) on it after the fact.

 

[BN4537]

Are your answers based on Indiana laws and regulations, or are you generalizing?

Generalizing. Hence the "Unless your building department is weird."

It's most likely not legal at all. If the law requires licensed tradesmen, I'm sure the law requires that the licensed tradesmen actually perform the work, not "sign off" (whatever that means) on it after the fact.

Not legal, but basically unenforceable. If the electrician said he did it, I can't prove otherwise. Gonna be deep doo-doo if there's a fire though, that electrician will run for cover.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

My state does not require licensed tradesmen and does not have a way to license any kind of tradesman so anyone can do it here, except for some urban areas that may have their own way to license and require tradesmen. All the areas I work do not require licensed tradesmen, but I did work in one municipally years ago that only required the plumbers to be licensed but only by a different municipally license.

 

[socaldano]

Hi,

I’m remodeling a bathroom in Indiana and was curious how much electrical and plumbing work I can do before a license would be required.

Can I run a wire from a light switch to a new bathroom fan without needing a licensed electrician to pass the inspection?

Can I move a 1/2” copper water line back 3” to fit a new shower or does a licensed plumber have to do it?

If these tasks and similar ones like it require other licensed specialists to perform them, how can I stay competitive in my estimate when I have to pay premiums for minor repair work? Can I still do the work myself and have an electrician or plumber sign off on it for a fee?

Thank you!

Hi,

I’m remodeling a bathroom in Indiana and was curious how much electrical and plumbing work I can do before a license would be required.

Can I run a wire from a light switch to a new bathroom fan without needing a licensed electrician to pass the inspection?

Can I move a 1/2” copper water line back 3” to fit a new shower or does a licensed plumber have to do it?

If these tasks and similar ones like it require other licensed specialists to perform them, how can I stay competitive in my estimate when I have to pay premiums for minor repair work? Can I still do the work myself and have an electrician or plumber sign off on it for a fee?

Thank you!

These are things to consider.
1. Missouri law for instance, says that ANY plumbing repairs (including sweating pipes and replacing appliances) within the four walls of the house can be done by the owner or his employees, provided they are done to code. Many cities in Missouri ignore the law, and claim the superiority clause of the US Constitution and US Supreme Court doesn't apply to them.

2. "Owner builder rule" - States that use "licensed contractors" laws always have an exception that the owner or his employees can do any work, as long as its to code and they do not sell the building within 2 years. Image requiring an apartment owner to hire a plumber every time a toilet runs on, a faucet needs replacing, an electrician outlet needs replacing, or getting a carpenter every time a door latch needs adjusting.

3. In Missouri, the appellate Court Ruling is clear (MSC refused Centuri)... that the City has the burden of proof that what you are doing is an actually threat to health and safety. They cannot speculate or ascertain, they must be able to prove your work is unsafe in a court of law to prohibit it.

4. The Electrical line to the weather head is done by the Utility, they will not connect if it is unsafe. Interesting issue, if the Professional Engineers working for the Utility and the Utility says its safe, and the city says "hell no". who is right? See rule #3
The Sewer lateral and the water line TO THE HOUSE must be done by a licensed plumber in most jurisdictions
Rule #4 is because stupid stuff by you can harm your neighbors.