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Would you allow the JambLock in schools?

LGreene

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Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,153
Location
San Miguel de Allende, Mexico
This product is obviously not compliant with life-safety and egress requirements and I won't be recommending it to any school districts, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on it. I see a lot of non-code-compliant things in schools that seem to be a compromise between the school districts and code officials because of a lack of funds. For example, in our school the fire doors (which have already had the latches removed) are propped open with wood wedges except on the days that we have fire drills. Either the fire department is turning a blind eye to the practice ("make sure I don't see the doors propped when I'm here for the drill"), or the school is blatantly ignoring the FM's instructions. Anyway...the JambLock and similar products could be the answer that some schools choose to go with unless those of us who care about code compliance can educate them. My vote would be for each school to have a security / lockdown plan, and for that plan to be approved by the school superintendent, police department, fire department, and whoever else should be involved. That would give the fire department a way to spot this type of device.

AOL.com Video - Teacher's Invention Won't Stop Shootings but Can Keep Students Safer
 
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i wouldn't want to be that code official if a fire ever breaks out in that school. why dont the doors have magnetic hold open devices ? oh, and the hardware is removed. the intent of this code is to provide minimum safeguards FOR THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY...........................
 
Interesting , might consider it?????

would like to see one in person

Lori, so do your schools have fire sprinklers???
 
I see this as a tool for SWAT and security to use once the event has occurred to box in.

Otherwise it is a bad idea for two povs.

1. fls

2. like gated communities, they work fine until the bad guy is in your zone. now you have limited avenues for escape yourself.
 
No, for the same reason chains, drop over bars, deadbolts and the like are not allowed. "I promise we only use it for..." and you go into the building and the exit path is imped by the chains, drop over bars, deadbolts
 
Why not just install a locking door knob and metal mesh over the window on the classroom doors? The door can then be opened with a master key when the police do the search through the building or the danger is no longer present.

I do not like the one on the double doors at all
 
Yeah, there is actually hardware termed "classroom locks", you enable it from the exterior with a key so it remains locked from the ingress side, no button on the interior, (egress) side, but is always operable from the egress side. Looks just like a regular lever handle. I would not allow anything resembling the devices shown in the video.........
 
There are 2 types of classroom locks...the original ones - called classroom function locks, have a cylinder on the outside only. This cylinder locks and unlocks the outside lever. There is another type called classroom security locks or security classroom function. These have an additional cylinder on the interior, which is used to lock the outside lever without the teacher having to open the door and expose themselves to an intruder while locking the door. The interior lever allows free egress at all times. These are now required by law in California schools. I Dig Hardware / I Hate Hardware » Classroom Security Locks
 
Just to play devils advocate...

The device that goes under the door is not a permanent installation. It is not "connected or attached" It appears to just sit in place.

In looking at 101.2 Scope, it could be argued that the IBC does not regulate it any more than it regulates a chair I can tip up and under the door knob to obstruct the door. Once the building is built...the IBC does not regulate the behavior or the "furnishings" of the occupants. That's the job of the fire code.

We can't save everyone...and we must allow people some discretionary choice in how they occupy their buildings. To maintain our American freedoms...I believe in providing enough rope that people can tie their own noose if they want.

Just food for thought and discussion.
 
Sorry, should have clarified I was looking at it from the Fire Inspection standpoint.........and yes, it can be put back the second we leave, but it dissappeared while I was there, I can sleep at night.
 
You are correct it would be a fire code issue.

When I watched the video at home (blocked at work) it appeared that the one that slid under the single door had a pin that secured the lock to the door jamb which would keep it from being turn from the outside and pushed back under the door.

Each school shooting has and will be different. Some are inside between classes in a large area such as a cafeteria or common area, some in the classroom where they are basically trapped because there are no exterior doors, others happen outside on the playground. Nobody ever expects it to happen in their community. Our newest high school has a really good lockdown system to prevent a person from just walking through all areas of the building but depending on the precise time the event happens it will still leave some in harms way. There is no one solution that protects all. There are sick, demented, evil people all over the world from all walks of life that will always be walking among use. I suggest people educated themselves about how to recognize a potential threat. There are some great courses out there. Here is one that the NRA promotes and is has nothing to do with guns. It is about knowing your surroundings and refusing to be a victim

Women's Programs|Refuse To Be A Victim
 
The way I would look at these devices would be that they would not be in place until an event takes place. A teacher would only keep this in place until the tenth time a student has to go to the bathroom before they say forget about it. As for the fire inspection; if these are not in plain sight (sitting in the teacher's desk drawer) when you are doing the inspection you would have no idea they are being used.
 
Where do you draw the line regarding what a facility can do? I agree that it's not a building code issue, but the fire code requires free egress. It also requires fire doors to be maintained in code-compliant condition, which is a separate issue but one that I mentioned as an example in my original post. If wood wedges, padlocks and chains, etc. disappear when the fire marshal is around and that's considered acceptable, I think we're headed down a slippery slope - no? I know that everyone is reacting to the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary by trying to secure our schools, but I would much rather see them do so with a code-compliant solution.
 
tmurray said:
The way I would look at these devices would be that they would not be in place until an event takes place. A teacher would only keep this in place until the tenth time a student has to go to the bathroom before they say forget about it. As for the fire inspection; if these are not in plain sight (sitting in the teacher's desk drawer) when you are doing the inspection you would have no idea they are being used.
I agree with you - this device would not be used all the time - only in an emergency. If they are not visible during an inspection, the fire marshal won't know that they're being used. That's why I suggested having the lock-down procedures reviewed by the fire department.

The other downside to a product like this is that a year from now when there's a problem, half of them will be missing/misplaced - especially the ones for the large areas like the gym and cafeteria. I think the security should be part of the door hardware if budget allows, not a retrofit device.
 
steveray said:
And when he comes with a gun and a gas can?
We can't protect against every scenario, but there is a wide range of options in between doing nothing at all and turning our schools into prisons. I was just hoping to get inside the heads of y'all and see whether you would allow/recommend something like this product.
 
As you have pointed out Lori, there is hardware available that is safer from unwanted ingress, but also maintains code compliant egress.
 
Lori you said

I agree with you - this device would not be used all the time - only in an emergency.
One scenario I can see, from an end user point of view: Instructor leaves the classroom for a few moments, returns to discover a student has installed the device. Now, what to do, and what is going on inside of that room?

I can understand a school believing this is a simple way to a complicated end, but I just don't see it. As you say, there are door hardware solutions that are more complete, and in compliance.

The blocking of the SVR devices, I'm not going to bother commenting. That just has bad idea written all over it.
 
Where do you draw the line regarding what a facility can do?
I can see allowing interior corridor doors with magnetic hold open devices and lockable on the ingress side to be permitted to be released by a relay to the FACP in the office area. We will and have permitted interior classroom locking hardware like shown on Lori’s blog for classrooms for a few years now. We have similar devices in our station to meet law enforcement LIEN regulations since we share the building with the cops.



We went through this issue with law enforcement and the school district after Columbine and the schools created active shooter drills as mandated by the state. Schools here have been required to provide a minimum of (7) fire drills, (2) disaster and (1) defend in place annually.
 
Doorman said:
One scenario I can see, from an end user point of view: Instructor leaves the classroom for a few moments, returns to discover a student has installed the device. Now, what to do, and what is going on inside of that room?
Ha, ha, ha! That's funny and so true. Kids are smart little S#i+s.
 
No, this device is not anything different than chain and a padlock in egress doors..... unfortunately, fire codes and security don't always go hand in hand.

It is unfortunate with the events concerning schools and gun laws....but the codes (life safety) were developed and based on lives that have been lost in several fires...school violence is relatively new and a low number in the number of lives lost.

Refer to a Camden, SC Cleveland school fire where 73 kids lost their lives in a fire on May 17,1923.... add a few more -A 1915 school fire in Peabody, Mass., a few miles west of Salem and Marblehead, killed 21 girls as fire swept through the multi-story building.

The building had no fire escape; however, the Sisters who ran the Catholic school for girls routinely conducted fire drills. St. John School had made news in The State newspaper and on the radio, yet, no efforts were made nationwide to standardize fire fighting or fire safety procedures.

A similar incident, though much deadlier, had occurred in 1908 in Collinwood, Ohio, when a school building caught fire and 172 students and teachers died. School superintendents around the land knew of these things, yet establishing a nationwide set of standards seemed beyond the scope of the times.

Roll forward for a few years - Our Lady of the Angels fire December 1, 1958 in Chicago Illinois - A total of 92 pupils and 3 nuns lost their lives when smoke, heat, and fire cut off their normal means of escape through corridors and stairways.

In the few fire mentioned - 361 people lost their lives in fires at a school or educational institution - Columbine and Newtown numbers are 39 fatalities..... The Fire Codes which have been developed over time with a significant number of lives lost is quickly overshadowed by the new media frenzy and the knee jerk reactions thinking that something must be done......

I agree that changes are needed to be made - but not in locking our kids in schools which are becoming more penal in appearances and operations - How bout hurricane glass, secured doors, and limited ingress into buildings......and a school resource officer.(a trained professional who can help with disciplinary and fights at schools).

Deterrence and building upgrades would enhance building security while still maintaining the ability to egress in times of emergencies. Schools and Daycares have been labeled as soft targets since before the world trade center events --- but nothing is wanting to be done until Newtown?? (11 years)........

I do want to express sorrow to the families affected in Newtown, CT. I also want to remember the 361 lives lost to fire since 1908......... we solved one problem but we need to figure out how to solve this problem as well -- mental health, gun control, etc..... we all have opinions but we need to focus on one issue at a time in order to make changes...otherwise it becomes to convoluted and nothing gets accomplished...

Returning now to the regularly schedule forum......
 
What keeps a bad guy like Cho (VA Tech), from getting his hands on these to keep the police out and his victims in while he does his dirty work.

Cho Padlocked the doors to Norris hall to keep police out in order to have time for more shootings. VA Tech has retrofitted all panic devices on doors so that they cannot be chained.

Disabled exits and a gallon of accelerant or some explosives get higher body counts than gun mass murders--ie Happyland .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire
 
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