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'09 energy code

P

PORTEOUS

Bronze Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
82
Location
n.w. Montana
Would like some ideas on how other jurisdictions are handleing the independent inspection and the qualifications of said inspectors. Are any deptments using bldg inspectors for all the inspections. Who are you guys allowing to do the blower door tests, what qualifications are you requiring? It seems there would be too many inspections for bldg inspectors to handle. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Bill
 
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PORTEOUS,

Not sure about the other jurisdictions, but because of limitations [ political and

financial ], a lot of the "required" inspections fall by the wayside. It's intended

to be this way here. Also, we do not have any independent agencies or

inspectors perform inspections / tests / other. Again, it's intended to be this

way here! The ' powers that be ' do not want to know about or have compliant

residences. They just want to have the revenue stream continuing to come in.

Kinda like fatboy's scenario and the Medical Marijuana.

Yes! It is still all about the money, and not the quality of the structures being

built! :(

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Too tight houses cause a lot of other issues..

How is anyone handing the 50% of lamps in permanently installed light fixtures "shall be" high efficacy lamps? Does the inspector do a "light bulb" inspection at final?

Thanks
 
So, we here in Missoula are gonna be the only ones looking at the new energy code? Yes I guess we are gonna look for 50% lights at elec. finals. I do realize tight houses cause other issues, but I would think and hope they thought of that at code development. Oh ya, did you realize cfl lights create toxic waste, how we gonna deal with that? Sometimes I think we should just push the button and end this whole mess! WTF!
 
Here is link to Washington State info. http://www.energy.wsu.edu/apps/EnergyCode/2009EnergyCodeResources.aspx

Duct testers require certification but the whole house blower test does not. A sticker is required to be placed adjacent to the electrical panel with all the info on it. The building official can require presence at testing but I am going to just look for the sticker. If I suspect someone cheating then I will require observation of tests.

Too bad they are requiring these pin type lights as they will be obsolete with the development of LEDs. My neck already hurts. I am not going to count every fixture in the house. Just attended the training and one of typical spec houses built under current regs passed both the duct test and the blower door.
 
Too tight houses cause a lot of other issues..
Click to expand...
Montana ammended the code to limit the air changes to 4ACH50 which is tighter than the IEEC of 7. They tested homes built in the 50's & 60's and they where already at 6 or 7 ACH50

Some inspections are a "representative sampling" and you will not count everything. Besides you will not be able to buy a incandesent bulb in a couple of years.

Not sure how we will handle inspections. Not crazy about 3rd party inspectors for this as their pay check and future work will be based on how their inspections/reports are written
 
I'm running up against this on a new home right now, I had my architect make "M" and "E" sheets to give to my mechanical and electrical contractors to pencil in their designs, I told them to work with mechanical engineers and electrical engineers, or do it themselves and the architect would make it permanent, The electrical contractor is having his CAD guy do the entire sheet but the mechanical contractor requested a meeting with me and the owner. His approach is no "M" plans, but a note on the plans stating that all mechanical designs be by the mechanical contractor, then he went over with us where the owner wanted registers, cold air returns, fans etc. making suggestions. The architect said fine, this is done all the time, as long as what is done complies with Title 24 everything is alright. We have a new Energy Code effective last August 1st, this code requires 1 ACH fans in each bath whether there is a window or not, it requires a 1.0 ACH kitchen fan, and it requires a whole house 0.35 ACH fan, just fans running full time or on timers providing the requisite air exchange. If there is no "M" plan what does the plan checker do? In the past if there was no window in a bath the plan checker dribbled red ink on my plans, does he know to do this now? We don't want these damn fans that do nothing but increase utility bills, I'm just going to leave them out and see if the plan checker (or field inspector later) catches them, if they make us install them we will do so of course and let the owner disconnect them later. I don't think most inspectors are up on these new energy and Green Codes, maybe we can get by for a while until they find out about them. What are you guys and gals going to do? Forget about them, pencil them in at plan check? Call them at field inspection? Send the plans back to be redrawn to comply with the new codes, believe in them or not?

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We created our own energy code(prescriptive) much like jpranch with some exceptions. We do not accept ResCheck and we do not require a basement to be insulated at time of construction. When the basement is finished we require a minimum R-value of R-14. If we accepted ResCheck the basemnt could have as little as R-2 insulation in exterior walls. ResCheck is a pathetic joke when determining what constitutes an energy efficient package.
 
Min & Max - For an unfinished basement, do you require insulation under the floor joists to isolate the thermal envelope of the house above? If not, how is R2 a joke when R-nothing is compliant at final inspection?
 
Vegas Paul

Isolating the "thermal envelope" of the main floor would be a great idea, as long as you don't mind having the water lines freeze in the winter when temperatures fall to below zero for days on end. So why not install the R-2? Well it is relatively simple if you do the math. To get anything more than an unfinished basement the cost is about $5.00 per sq.ft. Once you start to finish it off all the code requirements come into play--electrical, mechanical and building. So for a very basic 1200 sq.ft. home about 1000 sq.ft. of basement will be finished-excludes mechanical room. So now you have an additional $5,000.00 invested into R-2 insulation. The alternative? Let the homeowner do it or hire someone as they acquire the funds. Result--R-14 insulation in basement exterior walls for virtually the same cost as the R-2 insulation. Seven times the r-value for the entire life span of the home. Long term which method is "greener"? Not only that you allow more first time low income homebuyers the opportunity to get into a new low maintenance home that is undoubtedly vastly more energy efficient than what they are living in now. In addition the basement finish is not on a 30 year loan at the mortgage company. Our experience is that with in 2-5 years most homeowners save enough to finish off their basement without borrowing additional money.

I am all for energy efficient homes but instead of just jumping on the bandwagon we need to assess what we are trying to accomplish long term and ResCheck is a miserable failure and those that endorse it are failing miserably.
 
How 'bout this, let's save 100 times the energy, free and forever, using a method that has been successful all over the world for hundreds of years, , , , simply by embracing tried and true basic design principles. Oh, , wait, , there's no money in that . . .
 
Min&Max

Finally. Someone else has seen the light. We are pretty much doing it like you and JPRanch except we are closer to what you describe. If ICC members and NAHB members would stop casting each other as enemies of the construction industry maybe we could get some actually beneficial things done. We are both losing ground because we sold our souls to 1). NFPA and then 2). Green building advocates. We have made a mess of OUR organization and obviously have only as much power as NFPA lets us have. Truly pathetic.
 
You do not have to finish a basement to insulate it. I do think the energy code is overboard in some areas, light bulbs, programable thermostats to name a few. I have seen the cost benefits of insulating and sealing air leaks in my own home when I compare my heating bill with others. Apples to apples my heating bill is 15 to 25 percent lowers then theirs
 
In order to maintain smoke and flame spread requirements installation of sheetrock is a virtual necessity. Which in turn gets the electrical inspector all twisted up about having outlets every 12 ft. Some jurisdictions have accepted foil faced foam sheathing while assuming it will remain in pristine condition when left unprotected. Now I wonder where all the little kiddies will be playing this winter when it is to cold to go outside? Ya think they might do a little damage to the foil facing? Or maybe it might be better to put up the plastic encased rolled insulation that meets the smoke and flame spread requirements. It worked great until they discovered the massive amounts of mold growing between the foundation wall and the insulation casing. And they are doing all this to pick up another R-2 in the basement wall.

The "cheap" alternatives to leaving the basement un-insulated at the time of construction are actually the most expensive features of the entire insulation package required by ResCheck. Unfortunately the "green" zeolots and ResCheck computer nerds are to arrogant to admit their shortcomings.
 
mtlogcabin,

You are deluding yourself if you think you can compare your utility bills to anyone elses and have an apples for apples comparison. The only way to have a somewhat legit comparison is to build identical floor plans side-by-side and have a tightly controlled utility use for each. Your comparison with others is virtually meaningless.
 
Insulate on the outside of the foundation instead of inside for starters, if the whole thermal barrier thing is an issue.

Back to light bulbs.. the 50% is a contentious issue here, mostly because of what's available on the market right now (LED and CFL).. compact flourescents are hard to dispose of; LED's do not have a good consistent light quality (either in amount or color - which is important to the home buyer).. technology will catch up in the next code cycle.. it's not there yet.

And, hey.. how many "permanent" light fixtures are installed in production homes, anyway (kitchen, bathrooms, basement, closets).
 
Rescheck or longer ago Mecheck was not always a failure but was transformed into a failure. Yes we accept rescheck but it dosen't amount to a tinkers dam. Here in Wyoming you can not get a house to comply anyway using the 09 energy code! So what is Rescheck today??? POS!
 
REScheck gives you the option of trade offs.. you can't MAKE a structure compliant using it.. the closer we go to things like Low E windows and high efficiency heat pumps.. the less useful it is.
 
Insulating the outside of the foundation works great---until the termites infest the wood framing because they were able to enter undetected from below grade up behind the exterior foam insulation.
 
Min&Max - thanks for the insight. I am gradually learning about basements and cold winters, after recently moving from the "slab-on-grade" desert to the Midwest. My first thought when I looked at some of the well-built homes here is that they did not finish insulating the envelope, because the floors were left uninsulated over an unfinished basement. My next thought was that the basement (finished or not) was still part of the envelope, and the 8" concrete mass walls were the thermal envelope component below grade. Nobody insulates outside the basement walls here, and only insulates on the interior when furring out and finishing the room(s).

Your comment about freezing pipes if they insulated the floors makes me think that the intentional "leakage" through the floors is required to protect the pipes. Or, it reinforces my theory that the unfinished basement is still part of the thermal envelope. Either way, it's all new for me and I need to keep my eyes and ears open to learn what's working and what's not here in this new Climate Zone.
 
Minimal energy costs are incurred by not insulating a basement. While I despise ResCheck, I will use it as a reference point. Typically I have seen where basements need only an additional R-2 to R-5 to be compliant with ResCheck. Obviously the cost/benefit ratio of insulating to such a minimum standard is heavy on cost and weak on benefit. In an unfinished basement it is only necessary to moderate the temperature with a couple of supplies and returns to promote air circulation.
 
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