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2006 IBC: Are dutch style doors permitted as a means of egress door?

Papio Bldg Dept

Papio Bldg Dept

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2006 IBC: Are dutch style doors permitted as a means of egress door?

Applicant has noted doors will have hardware to bolt sections of door together. What say you? Compliant, non-conforming, alternative design?

Thanks.
 
yes, but should be automatic or something on the joining, no human intervention, forgot how that was done on the last ones I saw.

are they required to be rated????
 
cda said:
are they required to be rated????
Click to expand...
Thanks. no they are not required to be rated. Basically whenever the lower portion is opened, the hardware will catch the upper leaf and pull them together. How does that work if the dutch is only open 1/4 of the way from the other direction? Isn't that an accessibility issue?
 
How does that work if the dutch is only open 1/4 of the way from the other direction? que?????

they only open in one direction correct???
 
Applicant has noted doors will have hardware to bolt sections of door together
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Sounds like it will meet

1008.1.9.5 Unlatching.

The unlatching of any door or leaf shall not require more than one operation.
 
Usually with non-rated dutch doors, the top leaf bolts to the bottom. If the top leaf is already open, you just turn the lever in the bottom leaf for egress. If they're bolted together, they operate like any other door. It gets tricky when the door is rated (I know this one isn't, but for future reference), because some door manufacturers test their rated dutch door with both the top and bottom leaf latching into the jamb. This application requires 2 motions to unlatch, and the motions have to be simultaneous. There is at least one manufacturer who has tested with the top leaf latching into the bottom on a rated door, and this meets egress requirements as well as passing the fire test.
 
Karnak the Magnificent:::: "dutch doors"

"What is the title of Lori's next article"
 
LGreene said:
Usually with non-rated dutch doors, the top leaf bolts to the bottom. If the top leaf is already open, you just turn the lever in the bottom leaf for egress. If they're bolted together, they operate like any other door.
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My questions are with how do they operate in compliance "if/when" they are not bolted together.

If the top leaf is already open, does it automatically open against the wall to the point it is no longer a protruding object from the pull-approach side? If the top leaf is only open 45 degrees and bottom leaf is closed at 0 degrees, or fully open at 90 degress, how does this meet accessibility (protruding objects) and operations (special knowledge or effort) compliance When only the top leaf is open, the door is no longer 80 inches in height?

1008.1.1. Size of doors. ...The height of doors shall not be less than 80 inches.

It gets tricky when the door is rated (I know this one isn't, but for future reference), because some door manufacturers test their rated dutch door with both the top and bottom leaf latching into the jamb. This application requires 2 motions to unlatch, and the motions have to be simultaneous. There is at least one manufacturer who has tested with the top leaf latching into the bottom on a rated door, and this meets egress requirements as well as passing the fire test.

How do you use the code to say yes, a dutch door is compliant when not latched together?
 
cda said:
Karnak the Magnificent:::: "dutch doors""What is the title of Lori's next article"
Click to expand...
Going Dutch: Do Dutch Doors Cover the Means of Egress/Accessibility Bill for both the Pull and Push side of the Table.
 
Another issue I've commonly found with Dutch Doors is that the lower half typically has a small "shelf", and sometimes that can obstruct the required egress width when the door is fully open...depends on the size of the shelf and how many degrees the door can rotate.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
My questions are with how do they operate in compliance "if/when" they are not bolted together. If the top leaf is already open, does it automatically open against the wall to the point it is no longer a protruding object from the pull-approach side? If the top leaf is only open 45 degrees and bottom leaf is closed at 0 degrees, or fully open at 90 degress, how does this meet accessibility (protruding objects) and operations (special knowledge or effort) compliance When only the top leaf is open, the door is no longer 80 inches in height?

1008.1.1. Size of doors. ...The height of doors shall not be less than 80 inches.

It gets tricky when the door is rated (I know this one isn't, but for future reference), because some door manufacturers test their rated dutch door with both the top and bottom leaf latching into the jamb. This application requires 2 motions to unlatch, and the motions have to be simultaneous. There is at least one manufacturer who has tested with the top leaf latching into the bottom on a rated door, and this meets egress requirements as well as passing the fire test.
Click to expand...
How do you use the code to say yes, a dutch door is compliant when not latched together?

Take it they will not have a closure device on them, since not rated or will they??

Scenario, no closure device, top leaf 1/4 open, just push it more open?? Or shut it and open the bottom leaf which will open the top leaf

Good , bad ???
 
IJHumberson said:
Another issue I've commonly found with Dutch Doors is that the lower half typically has a small "shelf", and sometimes that can obstruct the required egress width when the door is fully open...depends on the size of the shelf and how many degrees the door can rotate.
Click to expand...
Sometimes the shelf can be mounted on the pull side (as long as the door can still open completely with the shelf projection) which would take it out of the clear opening, but you're allowed to have projections up to 4" into the required clear opening width between 34" and 80" off the floor which is where the shelf would usually be mounted.
 
cda said:
Take it they will not have a closure device on them, since not rated or will they??Scenario, no closure device, top leaf 1/4 open, just push it more open?? Or shut it and open the bottom leaf which will open the top leaf

Good , bad ???
Click to expand...
I'll be interested to hear what you all have to say on this. I have never considered the top leaf a protruding object and I've never had an AHJ bring up a dutch door in the means of egress as a problem. If the partially-open top leaf protrudes into the clear width (I know you mentioned height Papio, but let's start with protruding into the clear width), then wouldn't any partially-open door protrude into the clear width? When the door is open to 90 degrees, there is no issue with egress as long as the shelf doesn't protrude more than 4" into the required clear width, and both leaves can easily move to the 90 degree position without any special knowledge or effort. I don't think the codes deal with this specifically but I don't see an issue. With that said, I am just a powerless door hardware consultant, not a code official.

And a dutch door would not typically have a closer unless it was fire-rated, and if it was fire-rated it would usually have some sort of electronic hold-open to hold the top leaf open which is the whole point of a dutch door.
 
I have only done one dutch in my career

It was rated, had closure device

Swung into the room

Did have mag door holder for the top

So no problem with clearances

They did have to plan for the door to swing in which caused a little problem of what could be behind the door
 
Lori, do you have a link to the hardware typically provided to link both leaves together? My concern is not with the door working as a singular unit, but the two leaves working (or not working) independently. If the lower leaf is fully open and the upper leaf is closed, this is a no good situation (but could be prevented depending on how the hardware interlocks the two leaves and prevents the lower leaf from bypassing the upper leaf) as it creates an undetectable opening for canes below the upper leaf. My concern is, if you don't know how far open the upper leaf is (e.g. 45 degrees, etc.) it could create a protruding object issue for the visually impaired. If you don't know it is there and you tap the lower closed leaf with your cane, will you hit the upper leaf?

There is a lot of hypothetical, but going back to the code, if the upper leaf is pulled out of the way (or removed altogether), how does the 34 inch tall door meet the minimum height requirement? Why doesn't the code address dutch doors? Didn't it used to?

Personally, I think if the two leaves are integrated, and the lower leaf can't bypass the upper leaf, it is a compliant door design.
 
thanks cda...the tech advisory was more of what I was looking for. found similar recommendations at eggers industries:

Self-closing: Both leaves may include independent closers; a closer may be used on one leaf with an approved astragal between the leaves serving to close the second leaf; Spring hinges may be used to close one or both leaves (in accordance with the hinge listing or leaf sizes per NFPA-80).

Latching: Both leaves may include independent latches; one leaf may latch into the other leaf; where an astragal is used the latch is only required in one leaf where the latched leaf prevents the second leaf from opening.

Dutch doors are constructed as two dependant leaves; they are not approved as stand alone items. The doors are constructed, and the identification marks applied, to show they belong in the same opening. Eggers will apply the fire label to the top leaf; the bottom leaf depends on its association and common mark number for its fire rating.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
a) Lori, do you have a link to the hardware typically provided to link both leaves together? b) If the lower leaf is fully open and the upper leaf is closed, this is a no good situation as it creates an undetectable opening for canes below the upper leaf.

c) There is a lot of hypothetical, but going back to the code, if the upper leaf is pulled out of the way (or removed altogether), how does the 34 inch tall door meet the minimum height requirement?

d) Why doesn't the code address dutch doors? Didn't it used to?
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a) It's usually just a simple surface bolt: http://www.andersonlock.com/ives-054mb-series--dutch-door-bolts-products-332.php

b) I see your point. On most dutch doors it is possible to open the bottom leaf and close the top, although that is not normally how they are used. If the door is fire-rated, the top and bottom leaves have the astragal or rabbet as described in the Technical Advisory provided by Charles. The astragal / rabbet is not usually done on non-rated doors, and because the hardware is a manual surface bolt, it is possible to open either leaf independently. Maybe you should make the astragal / rabbet a condition of your approval so that the bottom leaf can not be opened unless the top opens. That would make sense and comply with the intent of the code in my opinion.

c) Isn't the minimum height requirement related to the amount of head room needed? So if the top leaf was removed completely but you still had a full-height door opening, is it a problem that the bottom leaf is only 42" high (for example)? Wouldn't it be similar to a gate?

d) I do not know of a code reference to dutch doors other than fire-rated dutch doors.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
thanks cda...the tech advisory was more of what I was looking for. found similar recommendations at eggers industries:Self-closing: Both leaves may include independent closers; a closer may be used on one leaf with an approved astragal between the leaves serving to close the second leaf; Spring hinges may be used to close one or both leaves (in accordance with the hinge listing or leaf sizes per NFPA-80).

Latching: Both leaves may include independent latches; one leaf may latch into the other leaf; where an astragal is used the latch is only required in one leaf where the latched leaf prevents the second leaf from opening.

Dutch doors are constructed as two dependant leaves; they are not approved as stand alone items. The doors are constructed, and the identification marks applied, to show they belong in the same opening. Eggers will apply the fire label to the top leaf; the bottom leaf depends on its association and common mark number for its fire rating.
Click to expand...
This pertains to fire-rated dutch doors.
 
So what kind of occupancy do they want to use these in???

Maybe reason for them??

Do you have a floor plan??

Do the doors swing into the room or out???
 
A-3 occupancy with child-care component. Dutch door serves a hallway that leads to egress door and child-care rooms. It will basically be used as a way to look down the hallway, but keep little ones back in their area. Doors swing into hallway. I do, but don't have the internet access to upload to a bucket site.
 
LGreene said:
If the partially-open top leaf protrudes into the clear width (I know you mentioned height Papio, but let's start with protruding into the clear width), then wouldn't any partially-open door protrude into the clear width?
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It is what I call the open cabinet door effect. Can detection will not convey the important information if only one leaf is open. Having a son, I am newly aware of the effects of open cabinet doors and drawers as protruding objects.
 
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