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2009 ibc/ifc

B

brentwiese

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
10
Location
guam
greetings,

we have some large chain hotels (hyatt, hilton, etc) with outdoor areas used for dining, swimming, strolling, fountains, lounging (grassy and paved areas). it is our opinion that the hotel major group occupancy is R1. then any specific space within would be categorized per its use; lobbies, large restaurants - Group A, administrative offices - Group B, retail stores - Group M, etc. But other than than specific areas, the rest of the facility would defer to the major occupancy.

we would also do the same for exterior areas. swimming pools and larger dining areas would be Group A. but walking paths, general spaces that would not otherwise be specifically described by as another Group Occupancy would be again a Group R-1.

generally, outdoor spaces don't get a lot of scrutiny, unless they have high occupant loads, or have egress restrictions. but in our case, the fire department is considering ALL the exterior spaces as a Group A Occupancy. we do not agree, as it restricts a specific use (open flame; tiki torches in our case).

this is in the tropics. high humidity, lots of rain, no wildfire adjacency issues. be honest, when you think tropics, your mental image typically has tiki torches.

at the larger outdoor restaurants and pools, they are clearly not allowed. but at walkways, and beyond those spaces, we think they should be allowed. our angle on this goes towards the open areas and classification of occupancy group.

appreciate your feedback.
 
Welcome all the way from Guam

Does the local authority have any amendments to the base code???

Do you have any links to any code sections you can post? Governing this??

Yes walkways depending on how they are connected to buildings or other areas should not carry an occupancy type at all

Is this one person saying this or all inspectors saying it?
 
thanks! no, no local amendments that would apply to this. Per 1997 UFC section 2501.17, when they were installed. Per 2009 IFC section 308.3 for current installations.

no links, just pure 2009 IBC and IFC. actually the walkways we are talking about are not covered.

they one inspector in charge of these projects is saying it, and is supported by the department.

appreciate the help!
 
A walkway seems like a stretch to me.

And you do see this rule being applied to other hotels not run by your group???

308.3 Group A occupancies. Open-flame devices shall not be used in a Group A occupancy.

Exceptions:

1. Open-flame devices are allowed to be used in the following situations, provided approved precautions are taken to prevent ignition of a combustible material or injury to occupants:

1.1. Where necessary for ceremonial or religious purposes in accordance with Section 308.1.7.

1.2. On stages and platforms as a necessary part of a performance in accordance with Section 308.3.2.

1.3. Where candles on tables are securely supported on substantial noncombustible bases and the candle flames are protected.

2. Heat-producing equipment complying with Chapter 6 and the International Mechanical Code.

3. Gas lights are allowed to be used provided adequate precautions satisfactory to the fire code official are taken to prevent ignition of combustible materials.
 
From the Ibc

SECTION 301 GENERAL

301.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall control the classification of all buildings and structures as to use and occupancy

302.1 General. Structures or portions of structures shall be classified with respect to occupancy in one or more of the groups listed below. A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied. Structures with multiple occupancies or uses shall comply with Section 508. Where a structure is proposed for a purpose that is not specifically provided for in this code, such structure shall be classified in the group that the occupancy most nearly resembles, according to the fire safety and relative hazard involved.

Have you tried a set down with the highest person in the inspection dept?? And if that does not work would keep on going to include any appeals process
 
Unfortunately, I think that the FD may be pushing a little..... however, in their defense........ The torches ,etc. can make the MOE from the public areas more hazardous - trade offs may include moving the torches so they are out of arms reach and limiting the amount of fuel available.

The last thing that a place needs is flaming torches that are accidentally knocked over and trip, burn, maim people in the chaos.... Not all MOE safety requirements are based on fire - man made and natural disasters do happen as well.
 
It should not be a deal-breaker for the outdoor areas to be considered Group A. There are 3 exceptions in IFC 308.3, of which two may be considered: Perhaps per 1.1 they are ceremonial, welcoming the night in a traditional and ceremonial fashion, or 3. which permits gas lights with adequate precautions satisfactory to the fire code official.
 
fantastic, appreciate all the input! let me address your questions/comments one by one.

cda, the fire department is applying these rules to all the hotel properties.

yes, we have reviewed the exceptions, and most of the cases would not fall into any of these options.

from the section provided, it appears your point of view is that Occupancies only apply to buildings/structures. but we have, in the past, applied occupant loads to yards egressing thru structures, or gates. also, there's an occupant load for pools. do you consider this as an unrelated code application?

yes, it seems the administrative process has been exhausted. there is an appeals board, but nobody wants to go there unless they feel they have a solid code base on which to make their argument. and really, that's why i'm asking for your input.

b bob, yes, we completely agree. these are piped torches at top, with concrete bases below. i'm asking for a demonstration to show what happens when things go wrong. looking forward to that. :)

aegis, yes, we did look at the exceptions. fire department is not buying the ceremonial slant. but depending on the field demonstration, we may be able to find ways to mitigate their concern. our understanding is that they have taken a hard line approach intentionally, to avoid any sense of "responsibility" if there is an accident. so they have been resolute.

but if you all agree that Occupancy Groups do not apply to outdoor areas not covered with roofs or structures, then I think we have room to negotiate.

again, i really do appreciate your help! thank you for your time.
 
I do agree that "some" outdoor areas do fall under the Ibc

Such as an outdoor patio area attached to say a restaurant and the seating area, no roof of any kind, has to exit back into the building

Or small height wall of some type.

So say there was a 200 foot concrete walk way to the beach from the hotel

And starting fifty feet from the hotel there were the torches all the way to the beach

And nothing but sand on each side of the walk way

They would call that an A occupancy and not allow the torches?????
 
yep. got the hotel owners a bit upset too. hence, i need to find a solution.

thanks for your input.
 
Would be glad to come consult just cost air fare place to stay and food!!! May take a year to resolve!!!!

Good luck sounds like you have to convince them a wide open walk way with nothing around it is not an occupancy.

So do they allow fire pits on the beach??? Surprise they do not call the beach an A???

I guess your only hope is keep going up till you find someone that will listen
 
cda,

In the OP, he mentioned "with outdoor areas used for dining, swimming, strolling, fountains,

lounging (grassy and paved areas). It is our opinion that the hotel major group occupancy is

R1. Then any specific space within would be categorized per its use; lobbies, large restaurants

- Group A, administrative offices - Group B, retail stores - Group M, etc. But other than than

specific areas, the rest of the facility would defer to the major occupancy."

Respectfully, but how is this not an A Occ. Group designation?

Also, IMO, Exception # 3 would apply to a beach area, as long as there are no combustibles

(i.e. - wooden or other ignitable structures) nearby.

.
 
A walkway away from the hotel, and not part of a means of exit, to the beach is an A occupancy???

Op is saying the ahj says yes

Yes some outside areas are part of the main use put I do not think all

So is the parking lot an A occupancy is the beach owned by the hotel an A occupancy

I think the fire dept is trying to keep people safe just stretching it

I would wonder if they would allow a fire ring that people can set around ??
 
Without more information from the OP, defining the areas & associated occ. loads (not

necessarily the walkways to the A occ. group areas), but the actual areas where the A

designation will apply and any combustibles in those areas, I would defer to the FCO

in Guam. Besides, no exceptions have been provided to allow the tiki torches to remain,

..the appeals process appears to be non-viable / non-desired!

I; like you, am requesting a visit to Guam so that I can more fully investigate the

application.

.
 
globe trekker said:
Without more information from the OP, defining the areas & associated occ. loads (notnecessarily the walkways to the A occ. group areas), but the actual areas where the A

designation will apply and any combustibles in those areas, I would defer to the FCO

in Guam. Besides, no exceptions have been provided to allow the tiki torches to remain,

..the appeals process appears to be non-viable / non-desired!

this is the question I posted to the OP::

I do agree that "some" outdoor areas do fall under the Ibc

Such as an outdoor patio area attached to say a restaurant and the seating area, no roof of any kind, has to exit back into the building

Or small height wall of some type.

So say there was a 200 foot concrete walk way to the beach from the hotel

And starting fifty feet from the hotel there were the torches all the way to the beach

And nothing but sand on each side of the walk way

They would call that an A occupancy and not allow the torches?????

AND this is his answer:::

yep. got the hotel owners a bit upset too. hence, i need to find a solution.

thanks for your input.
Click to expand...
 
yep, that's primarily it cda (in reference to the photo).

i appreciate all the offers to come out and help. weather here is great. :)

but going back to the basic question:

can outdoor spaces, without roofs or structures, be classified as an Occupancy Group?

i think we all agree we would use occupancy loads (per Table 1004.1.1) for specific kind of outdoor spaces. but that necessarily does not require the space to be classified as an Occupancy Group. or does it?

if this is accurate, then no exception is required, as these (like the photo) would not be classified as a Group A Occupancy.

an appeals process is very likely, but only if we have a viable code interpretation to stand on.

globe trekkerr, you mentioned in a certain circumstance exception #3 could be applied. then do you consider a tiki torch is a "gas light"?

really do appreciate the input! thank you for your help!
 
From the Ibc

SECTION 301 GENERAL

301.1 Scope. The provisions of this chapter shall control the classification of all buildings and structures as to use and occupancy

302.1 General. Structures or portions of structures shall be classified with respect to occupancy in one or more of the groups listed below. A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied. Structures with multiple occupancies or uses shall comply with Section 508. Where a structure is proposed for a purpose that is not specifically provided for in this code, such structure shall be classified in the group that the occupancy most nearly resembles, according to the fire safety and relative hazard involved.

Yes there are some areas outside that do carry an occupancy type, but to me not some of the areas you bring up
 
Just thought is there a building official anywhere on this picture??????
 
but when i read that code section, it only talks about "structures". if there's no walls, roofs or structures, then NO Occupancy group? that's my argument.

bldg official has no say with the fire department here.
 
"""""the building official"""""shall establish a use based on a listed use that most nearly resembles the intended use. "

1004.1.1 Areas without fixed seating. The number of occupants shall be computed at the rate of one occupant per unit of area as prescribed in Table 1004.1.1. For areas without fixed seating, the occupant load shall not be less than that number determined by dividing the floor area under consideration by the occupant per unit of area factor assigned to the occupancy as set forth in Table 1004.1.1. Where an intended use is not listed in Table 1004.1.1, the building official shall establish a use based on a listed use that most nearly resembles the intended use.
 
I do not believe this applies to some of your set ups

1004.8 Outdoor areas. Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter. The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use. Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the occupants of the building, and the path of egress travel from the outdoor areas passes through the building, means of egress requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

Exceptions:

1. Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the building need only have one means of egress.

2. Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and individual dwelling units of Group R-2.

Also if you look at A-5's It includes outdoor areas also U's
 
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