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2nd Floor accessible restrooms

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righter101

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
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604
Using the 2009 IBC and ANSI A117.1

I have a lower floor F1 under construction.

They are proposing to add a second floor of "offices", <3000 sq ft. to negate the elevator requirement.

The 2nd floor "offices", 4 total, have 2 common bathrooms with showers. There is also the "employee breakroom/conference room" outside the conference rooms. It has a kitchenette, fridge, sink etc.

The lower floor F1 area has 2 accessible restrooms, no showers.

I have required them to provide an accessible means of egress, 48" wide stairs, per the CH10, "accessible means of egress".

The bathrooms are not for a single occupant, accessed through a private office, so they need to meet the accessiblity requirements.

My question is how do I deal with the showers upstairs?? Using 1109.2, it would seem that since they are not required to provide an "accessible route" to the 2nd floor, they would need to make a shower available on the lower floor, not just the upper floor.

Am I correct in this interpretation?

Also, I am unclear on what level of accessiblity is needed for a shower that is serving a use other than a dwelling or sleeping unit.

Thanks, as always to those who respond.
 
Everything on the second floor must be accessible.

The only thing that might not be required based on your descripton is vertical accessibility (i.e. chair lift or elevator).

There is no need to provide an accessible shower on the first floor because there will be two on the second...and putting in a lift for a disabled worker would probably fall under a reasonable accommodation should a disabled person require access to the shower.
 
While not code, the DOJ (or ADA - I forget which) hasda letter out their that indicates that accessibility is required so that if future upgrades or change of occupancy requires the accessible route to be made, it would be a minor retrofit for accessibility and limit "technical" difficulties in hte ability to obtain compliance.
 
What does the plumbing code you're working under require? Are you under the International Plumbing Code or National Standard Plumbing Code? I can't speak to the former as we're under the latter which requires "1 emergency shower per 10 people when exposed to skin contamination" for factory uses. If you're under the IPC, what does it require?
 
To answer all the questions:

The 2nd floor showers are for employee use. Each bathroom (2 total) is accessed from a common area and from 2 offices.

There is no lift or platform lift to get to the second floor. The applicant chose to make the 2nd floor less than 3000 sq ft. in order to not have an accessible route.

We are under the 2009 UPC. I will double check on the contamination shower, but this F1 is a fairly benign process.
 
Stores got nailed about the break rooms and conference rooms on the second floor a few years back. Owner might want to reconsider placing them on the accessible floor.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Stores got nailed about the break rooms and conference rooms on the second floor a few years back. Owner might want to reconsider placing them on the accessible floor.
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I appreciate this and understand it, however, the owner is doing everything to the bare minimum. If it isn't in the I-Codes, it won't be done.

They have done every thing possible to maximize the size of this and keep it under the threshold for sprinklers, even though this is a replacement for a building that burned to the ground.

That is what I am dealing with.

That is what I am trying to determine. What is the maximum extent of accessibility that I can require, using the 2009 IBC and ANSI.

Brugers is saying that the showers on the 2nd floor are ok, and if an employee in the future needs a lift, they would have to install it. Do you guys generally agree with that?
 
My reading of 1109.2 makes me think that there should be a shower on the lower floor as well.

1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities. Each toilet room and

bathing room shall be accessible. Where a floor level is not

required to be connected by an accessible route, the only toilet

rooms or bathing rooms provided within the facility shall not

be located on the inaccessible floor. At least one of each type of

fixture, element, control or dispenser in each accessible toilet

room and bathing room shall be accessible.

This leads me to believe that they need the shower to be on the lower floor.

I read the state amendments to the Uniform Plumbing Code and it requires showers in F occupancies "for each person exposed to heat or to skin contamination with irriating materials"....

Does this mean the building department needs to provide me with a shower since some of the submissions i received are "irriating materials"??
 
mark handler said:
No..........If showers are provided, then at least one accessible shower shall be provided.
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The ANSI provides 3 types of showers (Transfer, roll in and alt. roll in), which one would be allowed, or would any of the configurations satisfy the requirement?
 
righter101 said:
Brugers is saying that the showers on the 2nd floor are ok, and if an employee in the future needs a lift, they would have to install it.
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So long as the showers are on an accessible route complying with code + ADA and the showers themselves are accessible. Inaccessible showers are not ok.
 
They made the 2nd floor <3000 sq ft, specifically to avoid a lift or elevator. That is where they are proposing to put the showers. They are not on an accessible route however. This is what I think is problematic.
 
2006 IBC 1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities. Toilet

rooms and bathing facilities shall be accessible.

Where a floor level is not required to be connected

by an accessible route, the only toilet rooms or

bathing facilities provided within the facility shall not

be located on the inaccessible floor. At least one of

each type of fixture, element, control or dispenser

in each accessible toilet room and bathing facility

shall be accessible.

2010 ADAAG 213.3.6 Bathing Facilities. Where bathtubs or

showers are provided, at least one bathtub

complying with 607 or at least one shower

complying with 608 shall be provided.
 
ANY new toilets or bathing facilities even those on the second floor shall be accessible, unless in a private office accessible through the private office

You seen to be doing your client a disservice by trying to circumvent the code, you should try to get him to comply, you as the Design Professional can be sucked into a lawsuit

If he does not want to comply with the ADA, Have him contact his lawyer, and get a letter indemnifying you and your design.
 
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Thanks Mark, I think I have a much better grasp of this.

Anyone want to speculate on the definition of "exposed to irritating materials"????

This F occupancy is related to agriculture, processing of a specific type of flower in to soaps, oils, cookies, maybe baskets, etc...
 
righter101 said:
They made the 2nd floor <3000 sq ft, specifically to avoid a lift or elevator. That is where they are proposing to put the showers. They are not on an accessible route however. This is what I think is problematic.
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IMHO the toilets and showers on the second floor, a second floor which is not required to be accessible and are not the only toilets located in the building, the showers should not be made to be ADA compliant. The showers are not even required for the occupancy. As AHJ we want people to exceed the minimum requirements in the code, we don't want to discourage them by placing more restrictive burdens on them.

Is the 2010 ADAAG apart of your addopted code?
 
Not just a 2010 ADAAG thing

2009 INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE 1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities. Each toilet room and bathing room shall be accessible. Where a floor level is not required to be connected by an accessible route, the only toilet rooms or bathing rooms provided within the facility shall not be located on the inaccessible floor.

At least one of each type of fixture, element, control or dispenser in each accessible toilet room and bathing room shall be accessible.

Exceptions:

1. In toilet rooms or bathing rooms accessed only through a private office, not for common or public use and intended for use by a single occupant...
 
Design professionals are starting to be held to a higher standard

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT ON THE ADA

Establishing architect liability: "...designers of new buildings are responsible for insuring they comply with the ADA. (United States v. Ellerbe Becket)..."

If You Build It, Can They Sue? Architects' Liability Under Title III of the ADA

James P. Colgate

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3598&context=flr&sei-redir=1#search=%22doj%20ada%20Establishing%20Architect%20Liability%22

Just because an architect can get something past the naïve or inexperienced planchecker, does not relive you of liability exposure.
 
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righter101 said:
The ANSI provides 3 types of showers (Transfer, roll in and alt. roll in), which one would be allowed, or would any of the configurations satisfy the requirement?
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Any one of those is permitted in the A117.1. The emergency shower head can be extended off the eye wash station. The waste water from the shower can be mop or squeeze clear if necessary.
 
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