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507.2.3 Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes.

skipharper

skipharper

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Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
242
Location
Louisa County, Va.
Domestic cooking appliances utilized for commercial purposes shall be provided with Type I or Type II hoods as required for the type of appliances and processes in accordance with Sections 507.2, 507.2.1 and 507.2.2.

Would you require a hood if this appliance is installed in a church hall for Sunday luncheons but no food is sold?
 
IMHO Church use is not commercial purposes

we have had this discussion before, check the history
 
Skip,

Here, our FCO does not require a Type I or Type II hood to be installed

if there are no burner eyes on the top of the stove, otherwise, they

have to install an approved type of hood & suppression system.

FWIW, some churches around these parts have a somewhat dubious

reputation with regard to cooking for the masses.
 
How many for lunch? Luncheons, this week, full blown flapjack feed next week......who is, and how are you going to regulate it?
 
Greetings

We have lot of fish fries in this neck of the woods=lots of grease laden vapors=type I required. IMHO

BS
 
As mark noted, it will come down to how the local AHJ interprets commercial use. IMHO, and within our AHJ, a $5-10 donations for all you can eat buckwheat flapjacks, bacon/sausages with scrambled eggs and friday fish fry festivals would constitute a commercial use, where as employee meal preparations would not constitute a commercial use.
 
We use the common sense approach and trust what we are told--Building Inspectors should never "what if"-thats a bad road to go down. If you look at the definition of commercial in websters, monies are involved.
 
skipharper said:
We use the common sense approach and trust what we are told--Building Inspectors should never "what if"-thats a bad road to go down. If you look at the definition of commercial in websters, monies are involved.
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uh, I believe what-ifs are the backbone of many code sections, especially when designing a non-separated mixed-use assembly space. what-ifs can mean the difference between an E and I occupancy, and A and a B occupancy. If you are using the ICC code books, you are already well down the what-ifs road. The what-if in this thread lies between whether it is a commercial use or a commercial occupancy and the what if they do end up selling their food for charity.

I would think your logic is a good starting point, but falls short when a kitchen experiences commerical use on a regular basis without selling it's product.
 
With all due respect I disagree with your theory on what if as it relates to the ICodes, which we use. When you plan review a non seperated mixed use building do you determine its an E and not an I and then drive around for the next five years thinking "what if they change it"--thats the purpose of the change of use permit.
 
I would think your logic is a good starting point, but falls short when a kitchen experiences commerical use on a regular basis without selling it's product.
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Exactly the problem.

We have 2 churches built under the UBC which exempted churches from Type I hood requirements if residential appliances where installed

1 has a spaghetti dinner every friday night

the other is used for large (300 plus) weddings and receptions at least every weekend during the summer and twice a month during the winter. cater's will cook in the churches kitchen.
 
How many pancakes do you need to cook before triggering NFPA 96 A.11.6.2 2008? That references the depth of grease, requireing a cleaning.

How many rashers of bacon or sausage patties before needing to clean the exhaust system?
 
fireguy said:
How many pancakes do you need to cook before triggering NFPA 96 A.11.6.2 2008? That references the depth of grease, requireing a cleaning. How many rashers of bacon or sausage patties before needing to clean the exhaust system?
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How many un-attended burners need to be left on before the pan of bacon or the griddle of pancakes catches fire?

The codes are there to reduce the risk factors not eliminate all propable causes and as code officials consistancy in the application within the AHJ of the code (right or wrong) is important. Using the "alternate means and methods" section of the code in lieu of a full blown Type I hood system in some applications tied to an "operational permit" may be acceptable way to go. The operational permit would be the tool to monitor the level activity and address any concerns if it should increase.

Churches are not the only ones, we have seen it with VFW's and American Legions, Moose, Elk and any number of orginizations. Starts with boiling hot dogs or a spaghetti diner to offering hamburgers and fry's on a nightly bases with a fish fry on Saturdays
 
COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. *****Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment *****for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors that are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system. Such appliances include deep fat fryers; upright broilers; griddles; broilers; steam-jacketed kettles; hot-top ranges; under-fired broilers (charbroilers); ovens; barbecues; rotisseries; and similar appliances. For the purpose of this definition, *****a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.*****

The code doesn't say anything about money........
 
Francis Vineyard said:
Define "commercial" but still I go along with the intent
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To me...anything not in the IRC.....I know that is a tough one.....but if you limit to "sale" of food...what do you do at a soup kitchen, etc.....If your particular AHJ has the ability to waive or alter code requirements on a case by case basis, Great!...We have to send all of our stuff to the State, and they make those decisions to maintain some kind of consistency at least within our own state....They do let people out of some of the hood requirements based on limited use (frequency and menu)....but for me, the code as written it is almost always some type of hood.....Try to make sure the FM is involved so that when things change down the road, they can maybe step in and require a change....
 
That's where we start, if it's not residential, then by default it is commercial. Then we go from there. Yes, the employee break/lunch room can argue for a exception, and we have accepted it.
 
IMC might eventually;

M77–12



505.1



Proponent: Gary Kreutziger, M.C.P., City of San Antonio, representing Gary Kreutziger (gkreutziger@sanantonio.gov)

Revise as follows:



505.1 Domestic systems. Where domestic range hoods and domestic appliances equipped with downdraft exhaust are (delete;located within dwelling units) installed, such hoods and appliances shall discharge to the outdoors through sheet metal ducts constructed of galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum or copper. Such ducts shall have smooth inner walls, shall be air tight, shall be equipped with a backdraft damper, and shall be independent of all other exhaust systems.



Reason: The change will provide prescriptive requirements for all installations of domestic range hoods and domestic appliances with downdraft exhaust. As the section is currently written it only applies to dwelling units. Domestic appliances are often installed in church kitchens, assisted living classrooms, break rooms, child care facilities, fire stations, etc. all of which use the domestic appliances in the same manner and with approximately the same frequency as a dwelling unit. IMC section 507.2.3 requires a type I or II hood over domestic appliances utilized for commercial purposes. Most jurisdictions would not consider the domestic appliances installed in the aforementioned occupancies as utilized for commercial purposes. This code change will provide direction where the code is currently silent.



Cost Impact: The code change proposal will not increase the cost of construction.



http://www.iccsafe.org/cs/codes/Documents/2012-13cycle/Proposed-A/04_IMC.pdf



2012 IMC



507.2 Where required. A Type I or Type II hood shall be installed at or above all commercial cooking appliances in accordance with :Next('./icod_imc_2012_5_sec007_par002.htm')'>Sections 507.2.1 and :Next('./icod_imc_2012_5_sec007_par005.htm')'>507.2.2. Where any cooking appliance under a single hood requires a Type I hood, a Type I hood shall be installed. Where a Type II hood is required, a Type I or Type II hood shall be installed.

Exception: Where cooking appliances are equipped with integral down-draft exhaust systems and such appliances and exhaust systems are listed and labeled for the application in accordance with NFPA 96, a hood shall not be required at or above them.

Francis
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I apologize repeating this if it has been posted on another thread but it’s good to review interpretations for guidance. Aware the commentary is not code; following from 2006 IMC in part; emphases added are mine.

“It is not uncommon, however, for fire stations to have a community room with a kitchen used for preparing meals. The community room is often used to hold fund-raising events, such as spaghetti dinners, fish fries or pancake breakfasts or used by members of the community for special events such as parties or weddings. The kitchen may or may not have commercial cooking appliances installed. In this case, it would appear that such a situation is intended for the preparation of food for revenue generation. In the case, a Type 1 or II hood is required based on the cooking operations that are performed under the hood. This would also apply to VFW and other fraternal organizations, church assembly halls and other similar halls.



It is important to note that cooking appliances installed in commercial occupancies do not necessarily require the installation of a Type 1 or II hood. There are a number of installations in a commercial occupancy where residential-type cooking occurs that would not require a commercial kitchen hood (see the discussion above for school classrooms and fire stations).”

Francis
 
If one limits the application of Type one hoods and fire-suppression to those specifically intended to generate revenue, what dowe do with schools, boarding homes, kitchens associate with retirement homes, assisted living, jails, etc. Revenue from meals, or lack thereof, doesn't seem to me to be a good determining criteria.
 
Searching for this code section, and came upon the commentary. Big Mac, the scenarios you gave acually all get reimbursed either on a per-meal basis or as part fo a package (room AND board).
 
Agree or disagree: if my city's health department (in charge of restaurant inspections, etc.) has concluded that the city's own park house - - which has a residential-type gas range and residential hood in it - - is NOT a "food establishment", then the fire department inspector should NOT require a type I hood per 507. Correct?
 
Is ANYONE requiring "Anti-Tip" devices installed...

Is ANYONE requiring that ranges and dishwashers have "Anti-Tip" devices installed, as per the manufacturer's installation instructions? If not, what is the reason?

The original topic question has been long ago debated and answered. However, commercial or not, I am told that most inspectors are not requiring the anti-tip devices at final inspection. Why not?

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/c3/3c3500d6-e962-5903-b2ee-8bc44481a30d/4c9a5dfa2a07c.preview-300.jpg
 
Anti-tip devices became a UL requirement June 3, 1991.

Not required by any code agency that I am aware of
 
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