906.3 Crown Vent

[Mech]

IPC 2009

906.3 Crown Vent. A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.

Is crown venting a concern on water closets since they have integral traps?

Must there be two pipe diameters distance from the vent and the end of the toilet sanitary pipe (once it turns horizontal)?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Builder Bob]

http://www.plumbingpros.com/pdf/dwvents.pdf
Page 19


See if this helps

 

[Builder Bob]

Not that smart, just found this "googleing"


Reason number 1 why you need more than 2 pipe diameters from the trap weir to the tee in the wall.

Say you have hair,lint,or string in the trap (obviously very common). That foreign matter is laying in the outlet of the trap. If the outlet is within 2 pipe diameters of the drop pipe that foreign matter could be laying from the outlet of the weir and down the drop pipe. The water would be wicked/siphoned out of the trap by the foreign matter.

It does happen. Think about toilet paper in a wcl drapped over the trap. Wicks it out doesn't it

This is one of the primary reasons for having more than 2 pipe diameters to the drop.

 

[Mech]

BB - I understand what you are saying, I think, but is this different for a water closet since the trap is integral to the fixture?

Is there a minimum distance 'X' required in the sketch below?

 

[north star]

@ ~ @ ~


Mech,

In researching your question, I see that the "two pipe diameters
distance away from the trap" is common across multiple plumbing
codes.

Apparently there is sufficient concern that the potential for air
pressure fluctuation inside the vent system, that [ could ] cause
siphonage or back pressure of the traps, ...that the plumbing codes
I read all DID have the requirement of no Crown Vents........I have not
yet found any studies or scientific evidence to support this fluctuation
of vent system air pressures..........That said, with the presence of
methane gas in the vent pipes, and continuously changing atmospheric
air pressures, it DOES seem logical; to me anyways, that not having the
minimum of two pipe diameters distance away from the trap; even an
internal trap, ...could effect the integrity of the trap seal.

There's my 2 cents worth...



@ ~ @ ~

 

[Mech]

Thanks for your research and input North Star!

I found the same requirements regarding 2x pipe diameter in the National Standard Plumbing Code.

 

[linnrg]

for post #4 3" piping times 2 = 6", vent for toilet can not be a san tee must be a combo or wye and 1/8 bend but do not think in the case shown that you are getting a crown wier problem because the trap is in the toilet. where I reject plumbing for crown problems usually are on clothes washer drains where the drain receptor and the vent/drain are in the same stud bay

 

[Mech]

So connections for vents to the drainage system must conform with Fittings for Change in Direction listed in Chapter 7 for sanitary drainage? I just substitute air for sewage traveling down the pipe?

 

[linnrg]

Yes, Mech that's it exactly

From UPC world 905.3 (last sentence - Chapter 9 being vents) Vents less than 6" above the flood rim of the fixture shall be installed with approved drainage fittings, material and grade to drain.

then under sanitary drainage piping rules vertical to horizontal requires the combo or wye and 1/8 bend or long sweep - so in effect "you never have a san tee on its back".

Not sure of the history here but if there was a cleanout on the vent a fish tape would follow the drainage path rather than getting hung up at the on its back san tee. And I found this out in my own home when I tried to clean out some piping via a vent. After the problem I removed and changed it to a combo. When I clean pipes if it goes well then there is a lot less cussin (at least in my house!)

The use of the san tee is done incorrectly all of the time and probably performs adeqaute enough for air so am not really sure why such distinct language was put in.

 

[skipharper]

Builder Bob's post #3 is spot on and please note whatever that is in post #4 has nothing to do with crown venting.

 

[skipharper]

Just an FYI for water closets from the IPC:
909.1 Distance of trap from vent. Each fixture trap shall
have a protecting vent located so that the slope and the developed
length in the fixture drain from the trap weir to the vent
fitting are within the requirements set forth in Table 909.1.
Exception: The developed length of the fixture drain from
the trap weir to the vent fitting for self-siphoning fixtures,
such as water closets, shall not be limited.

 

[Mech]

Thanks everyone!

 

[HForester]

I've always wondered about whether the 2 x the diameter of the piping was meant to be interpreted as a horizontal distance. Perhaps it was intended to be a developed length distance.....
I realize that the title of a section (crown vent) isn't code text but perhaps that is a lingering indication of what folks may have been talking about a long time ago. Really think about what a crown vented trap looked like in the old days. Wasn't the issue about the flow coming "up" from the bottom of the trap and then making the turn horizontal and that the vent opening too near the crown of the trap (the crown being the curve in the trap that makes the vertical flow turn horizontal) such that the flow gunk would eventually obstruct the vent opening? Maybe the measurement is from the horizontal liquid level at the trap weir, up and around the crown and then to the vent opening.

Just another way to think about it. The exception in the IPC does say "developed length". I'm not trying to buck tradition.