A2 - No. of Seats vs Occupancy Load

[remigandhi]

So I have a client wanting a small restaurant (A2- Assembly) to have 80 seats (not fixed seating, tables and chairs - non booth/banquette) and when we calculate the occupant load of the whole restaurant its only 68 occupants. She also mentioned that her previous restaurant was approved and constructed with the same numbers back in 2012. That said, what are your thoughts about this?

A colleague of mine says that the 'Design Occupant Load' is different than the 'Number of Seats' but she didn't mention anything more than that.

Location of the proposed restaurant is in Clearwater, FL

 

[cda]

Welcome

It is possible to have a higher occupant load,,,

You will already have

Two Exits
Enough exit width

Not sure the question???

 

[remigandhi]

Welcome

It is possible to have a higher occupant load,,,

You will already have

Two Exits
Enough exit width

Not sure the question???

Thank you cda!, I've been lurking for a while, and I think its about time to create an account!

the question I have is, is it a red flag that you have 80 seats, but the Occupancy Load of the whole restaurant is only 68 occupants?
I'm preparing in case the reviewer will say something along the lines of 'you have way more seats than the design occupant load'

 

[cda]

Thank you cda!, I've been lurking for a while, and I think its about time to create an account!

the question I have is, is it a red flag that you have 80 seats, but the Occupancy Load of the whole restaurant is only 68 occupants?
I'm preparing in case the reviewer will say something along the lines of 'you have way more seats than the design occupant load'

What is the sq ft of the sitting / dining area??

 

[cda]

Check your book for wording in the adopted code used



1004.2 Increased Occupant Load

The occupant load permitted in any building, or portion thereof, is permitted to be increased from that number established for the occupancies in Table 1004.1.2, provided that all other requirements of the code are met based on such modified number and the occupant load does not exceed one occupant per 7 square feet (0.65 m2) of occupiable floor space. Where required by the building official, an approved aisle, seating or fixed equipment diagram substantiating any increase in occupant load shall be submitted. Where required by the building official, such diagram shall be posted.

 

[remigandhi]

What is the sq ft of the sitting / dining area??

2020 FL Bldg code Chapter 10

Dining = 880 SF / 15 net = 58 occupants​

Kitchen = 1800 SF / 200 gross = 9 occupants​

Office = 50 Sf / 150 gross = 1 Occupant​

=68 Occupants​

about the store, we have 2 doors @ dining (1 double door ~68" + 1 single door 34") and another door (46") at the kitchen for employees. we have 2 single user restrooms as well.

 

[cda]

Well the other thing is

Unless you show the exact number of seats / whatever

Unless the ahj asks ,,,, should be good to go

Is she going to fill 80 chairs???

 

[remigandhi]

Well the other thing is

Unless you show the exact number of seats / whatever

Unless the ahj asks ,,,, should be good to go

Is she going to fill 80 chairs???

Thank you. We have a separate furniture plan on our plan set that the client's 'furniture supplier' provides us. I believe 80% of the seats are occupied typically, and sometimes she hits full capacity- which is mostly when there's a holiday etc or events.

1004.2 Increased Occupant Load

per this one, 880 SF /7sf = 126 occupants which is the maximum we can fit on the dining area if we are to relay on this code.

I was wondering now if the reviewer will then says that why not just use the 80 seats = 80 occupancy? on this project it won't be an issue, but when a project is a 115 seats with 95 occupancy load that might trigger a fire sprinkler requirements.

 

[cda]

Thank you. We have a separate furniture plan on our plan set that the client's 'furniture supplier' provides us. I believe 80% of the seats are occupied typically, and sometimes she hits full capacity- which is mostly when there's a holiday etc or events.


per this one, 880 SF /7sf = 126 occupants which is the maximum we can fit on the dining area if we are to relay on this code.

I was wondering now if the reviewer will then says that why not just use the 80 seats = 80 occupancy? on this project it won't be an issue, but when a project is a 115 seats with 95 occupancy load that might trigger a fire sprinkler requirements.

Yep

I tell a business ,,, what can you live with,,, what works for your model.

If you need the higher load,, you have to pay for it sometimes.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

If your showing 80 seats on the plan than that is what you should base everything off of.....Actually you should use 90 seats, the 80 restaurant seats plus the kitchen staff and office staff.

 

[bill1952]

If your showing 80 seats on the plan than that is what you should base everything off of.....Actually you should use 90 seats, the 80 restaurant seats plus the kitchen staff and office staff.

That's interesting, since when I have asked staff about ushers in a theatre of fixed seating, they suggested to ignore them for occupancy. Does the sign posted at your high school auditorium include ushers or just a fixed seat count?

Active in code development since 1987 and I can never figure out how many things are still not clear. Not critical, just wonderment.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

I have always been under the impression that you should calculate the occupant load by table 1004.2.1 and then calculate / count the occutual occupant load (aka butts in seats and then use the higher value of the two as your design occupant load. In most cases occupant load by Table 1004.2.1 comes out higher than actual butts in seats, but in this case butts in seats is the higher value.....Than again I tend to be on the conservative side of the code.

 

[steveray]

We do what Tim does....Similar to bar and restaurant Queueing areas....there are always more people than seats...

 

[bill1952]

I generally agree Tim. I usually explain that the occupant load table sets the minimum you have to design for - mostly egress issues - but you can design for more. In this example, I would say the occupant load factor is 1 per 15 sf - seated at tables - or 59 occupants - so you have to design for the 80 planned. My experience with this kind of assembly seating - tables and chairs as for a traditional restaurant or banquet hall - is that it's easy to meet all of the code requirements for egress and easily get to 1 person in every 10 sf - a number caterer's use. A code change in this most recent cycle, which I spoke against, is likely to allow even more.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

This is from the code commentary for section 1004.1
The design occupant load is the number of people that are intended to occupy a building or portion thereof at any one time; essentially the number for which the means of egress is to be designed. It is the largest number derived by the application of Sections 1004.1 through 1004.9


And this is a portion of the commentary for table 1004.1
....... If it is intended that the occupant load will exceed that calculated in accordance with the table, then the occupant load is to be based on the estimated actual number of people, but not to exceed the maximum allowance in accordance with Section 1004.2.......

 

[bill1952]

1004.2 seems more about different spaces in the same building than the occupant load for one room - which speaks to your waiters and kitchen comment if they don't have separate egress. It seems the aforementioned 1004.5.1 really speaks to the question of allowing -and posting - an occupant load greater than calculated from the table. I did wonder if the furniture plan indicated whether people waiting to be seated were counted.

 

[remigandhi]

1004.2 seems more about different spaces in the same building than the occupant load for one room - which speaks to your waiters and kitchen comment if they don't have separate egress. It seems the aforementioned 1004.5.1 really speaks to the question of allowing -and posting - an occupant load greater than calculated from the table. I did wonder if the furniture plan indicated whether people waiting to be seated were counted.

I do believe the 1004.5.1 from what I'm understanding is saying that even though the posted occupancy load is 68 it can still be more as long as the egress elements are can still accommodate the extra occupancy.

There's a small point of sale counter which is basically part of the kitchen, and there's not really a waiting area, once you entered you seat wherever you want and wait for the server to come by.

This is from the code commentary for section 1004.1
The design occupant load is the number of people that are intended to occupy a building or portion thereof at any one time; essentially the number for which the means of egress is to be designed. It is the largest number derived by the application of Sections 1004.1 through 1004.9


And this is a portion of the commentary for table 1004.1
....... If it is intended that the occupant load will exceed that calculated in accordance with the table, then the occupant load is to be based on the estimated actual number of people, but not to exceed the maximum allowance in accordance with Section 1004.2.......

Thank you for sharing this code commentary Tim.

 

[bill1952]

remigandhi-
In you post just above you say "posted occupancy load is 68" . If it's posted as 68, that's what officials agreed and is it. If you mean "calculated design occupany load from the table is 68", we agree.

 

[Paul Sweet]

Post it at the higher number, or else the fire marshal can come in and chase the people above the posted number out.