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Accessible counter at bar

V

VLADIMIR LEVIN

Registered User
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
113
Location
NY
In a restaurant with a bar, is an accessible counter required at the bar?
1109.11 (2020BCNYS) says:
"Where seating or standing space at fixed or built-in tables, counters or work surfaces is provided in accessible space, at least 5% of the seating and standing space shall be accessible"

I'm interpreting that as 5% of all the seating (dining and bar combined), so as long as I provide 5% accessible table(s) I'm conforming.

Or do I need to consider the bar as a separate area and provide 5% accessible counter at bar?
 
"
The ICC (and thus L&I) would only require a portion of the bar to be lowered IF the appropriate number of “accessible seating” was not present in the immediate vicinity of the bar."

Jerry Seville Board Reviewer
Rm. 1600
Labor and Industry Bldg.
-------------------------------------
The above email was from 7/14/17 and Jerry Seville has since passed away, but I believe it stands. I asked and received his help when my inspector at our bar took a different opinion. In my opinion based on nothing EXCEPT that fact that he wanted to cover himself from the state L&I inspector that MIGHT see things differently.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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2009,12,15 IBC 1108.2.9.1: Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the dining surfaces for the seating and standing spaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility and located on a level accessed by an accessible

2009 IBC commentary - Section 1108.2.9.1 establishes the criteria for the percentage of spaces at tables, booths, bars and counters that will be used for eating or drinking that must be accessible. This criteria is consistent with Section 1109.11 for the required percentage of accessible built-in surface in all other occupancies. The accessible
surfaces are also required to be distributed throughout the facility such that a comparable choice of locations and types ( i.e. tables, booths, counters, etc) is available see figure 1108.2.92.1) This requirement i, in conjunction with Section 1108.2.9. provides a reasonable and appropriate degree of accessibility throughout dining areas. The result is that a person with a mobility impairment will be able to approach, enter and move about in the dining area. In addition, 5 percent of the total spaces at dining surfaces provided must be accessible. Each seating location at a table or seat section of a bar is considered a dining surface. The issue of whether a portion of a bar or dining counter in a restaurant is required to be accessible is subjective. The assumption is that if other types of seating are provided adjacent to the counter, then services provided at the counter will also be available at the adjacent seating: therefore if adequate accessible seating is available adjacent to the bar area, the bar is not required to be lowered. IF the bar is the only eating or dining surface in a restaurant or in a separate room in the restaurant, then a portion of the bar must be made accessible.

The 2015 IBC Commentary says the following: "...There are practical reasons not to require dispersement by type. If you require a high table to be lowered, you no longer have a high table...The issue of whether a portion of the bar or dining counter in a restaurant is required to be lowered is subjective. The assumption is that if other types of seating are provided adjacent to the counter, then services provided at the counter will also be available at the adjacent seating. Therefore, if adequate accessible seating is available adjacent to the bar area, the bar is not required to be lowered. If the bar is the only eating surface in a restaurant, or in a separate room, then a portion of the bar must be made accessible."

I find no technical advisory from L*I but this one is ICC
http://www.dli.pa.gov/ucc/Pages/Technical-Code-Advisories-International-Building-Code-2003.aspx
http://www.kmaccess.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/wheelchair_spaces_required_at-bars_2016_10_oct_bsj_final.pdf

A concise document from arizona regarding the issue.

https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/TRT/dsd_trt_pdf_00546.pdf
 
1849 said:
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2009,12,15 IBC 1108.2.9.1: Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the dining surfaces for the seating and standing spaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility and located on a level accessed by an accessible

2009 IBC commentary - Section 1108.2.9.1 establishes the criteria for the percentage of spaces at tables, booths, bars and counters that will be used for eating or drinking that must be accessible. This criteria is consistent with Section 1109.11 for the required percentage of accessible built-in surface in all other occupancies. The accessible
surfaces are also required to be distributed throughout the facility such that a comparable choice of locations and types ( i.e. tables, booths, counters, etc) is available see figure 1108.2.92.1) This requirement i, in conjunction with Section 1108.2.9. provides a reasonable and appropriate degree of accessibility throughout dining areas. The result is that a person with a mobility impairment will be able to approach, enter and move about in the dining area. In addition, 5 percent of the total spaces at dining surfaces provided must be accessible. Each seating location at a table or seat section of a bar is considered a dining surface. The issue of whether a portion of a bar or dining counter in a restaurant is required to be accessible is subjective. The assumption is that if other types of seating are provided adjacent to the counter, then services provided at the counter will also be available at the adjacent seating: therefore if adequate accessible seating is available adjacent to the bar area, the bar is not required to be lowered. IF the bar is the only eating or dining surface in a restaurant or in a separate room in the restaurant, then a portion of the bar must be made accessible.

The 2015 IBC Commentary says the following: "...There are practical reasons not to require dispersement by type. If you require a high table to be lowered, you no longer have a high table...The issue of whether a portion of the bar or dining counter in a restaurant is required to be lowered is subjective. The assumption is that if other types of seating are provided adjacent to the counter, then services provided at the counter will also be available at the adjacent seating. Therefore, if adequate accessible seating is available adjacent to the bar area, the bar is not required to be lowered. If the bar is the only eating surface in a restaurant, or in a separate room, then a portion of the bar must be made accessible."

I find no technical advisory from L*I but this one is ICC
http://www.dli.pa.gov/ucc/Pages/Technical-Code-Advisories-International-Building-Code-2003.aspx
http://www.kmaccess.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/wheelchair_spaces_required_at-bars_2016_10_oct_bsj_final.pdf

A concise document from arizona regarding the issue.

https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/TRT/dsd_trt_pdf_00546.pdf
Click to expand...
I wonder why the AZ document says the table has to be fixed? Seems unnecessary.

In assembly seating for the performing arts, sports I think same, dispersion includes each type of seating, like opera boxes and balconies. Seems contrary to not requiring seats at a bar.
 
The biggest problem I have with tables is when all the tables are the type with a single column. They have a large base which does not comply for the toe space. Then they need to replace one of the tables with one with 4 legs.
Of course they get rid of this 4 leg table soon after they get the C. O. but before the state state accessibility auditor comes in and I get wrote up for failing to enforce the accessibility code.
 
$ ~ $

Rick, ...you "may" want to take multiple pictures of your inspections,
to document the conditions at the final..........Good, clear pictures are
hard to argue with, and "may" avoid you being written up.

Just sayin'...

$ ~ $
 
north star said:
$ ~ $

Rick, ...you "may" want to take multiple pictures of your inspections,
to document the conditions at the final..........Good, clear pictures are
hard to argue with, and "may" avoid you being written up.

Just sayin'...

$ ~ $
Click to expand...


I took photos of microwaves that were in 6 break rooms in a large building that were on counters and in reach ranges on the final inspection because I had a feeling they were going to move them to a higher shelf once they got the C. O. The state suditor wrote me up for all of them that they were too high the following week even though I showed him the photos.
 
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