ADA class action filed in Pittsburgh federal court

[MASSDRIVER]

Valuation is never set at the full finish of project. Finishes and such are not considered. And usually it is set by the building department per a square foot formula. That's the bd's own table.

Brent.

 

[mtlogcabin]

A] 109.3 Building permit valuations.

The applicant for a permit shall provide an estimated permit value at time of application. Permit valuations shall include total value of work, including materials and labor, for which the permit is being issued, such as electrical, gas, mechanical, plumbing equipment and permanent systems.

The cost for DP's, geo tech reports, owners due diligence, other state and federal regulatory requirements such as site drainage, site mitigation, environmental impacts and numerous other "hidden" cost are never includes in what is submitted to the building department.

We only want the cost from the foundation up. No site work, site utilities, do not include anything exterior of the building and not part of the building.

So Conarb is correct when stating building departments do not know the total cost of a project.

No he is not lying on "legal" documents when the code does not require those cost be included

 

[mark handler]

You are including site drainage, site mitigation, environmental impacts and numerous other "hidden" costs in a restroom renovation?

We are talking a TI, restroom, nothing more, nothing hidden

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Here's one worksheet.

Some "drawers" never get it right. The client gets an estimate of cost based on the building depts schedule which is not all-inclusive. When they get a proposal based on actual cost then YOU get to be the bad guy. It beehooves the architect to understate the price to make it appear feasible to do the job for a lower budget, sometimes securing the work for themselves. That behavior is prevelant.

http://www.cityofsanmateo.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/183

Brent

 

[ADAguy]

Response to comment:

"I've done this work before, I'd roughly estimate that adding one unisex restroom will cost something just over $100,000 and they may loose seating"

1. (ADA does not require you to provide a restroom in resturaunts, they also do not require you to lose income generating seating in existing resturaunts with non-compliant restrooms) "If provided" it must comply (they can be deleted if not required by local codes, but doing so inconviences "all" patrons). Provison requirements are based on local codes.

(if they asked me I'd bring in my architect who is knowledgeable about ADA and work with him and the owner to see if it is at all possible to expand the employees' restroom

2. If less than (15?) employees, accessible employeee bathrooms are not required (but RRs for employees are required by health codes) but a mistake not to do so in the event a disabled employee is hired.

3. Existing small resturants with liquor licenses can be an issue as many health codes require both a urinal and a WC in the mens room. I have found many of these lacking in clear floor space. If the mens room is a single occupant, some agencies will allow removal of the urinal. thereby providing the required clear floor space. Each existing facility must be reviewed on a site by site basis, there is no "one size fits all" answer. Within reason barrier removal can be addressd for far less than you indicate.

in their back kitchen/store room, but they will loose something important there too even if it is possible). They are located in a small strip mall and Handicap Parking is not near the doors, and is certainly inadequate with no van spaces. BTW, they do have many disabled customers on a daily basis, probably because they are near a large retirement community, to my knowledge nobody has complained or sued. To tear out and jackhammer out floors they will have to shut down for a couple of weeks, on the other hand I've remodeled restaurants where they wanted to stay open and I've worked at night paying time and a half, it does cost a lot more but may restaurants have thought the extra cost was worth it not to shut down (I've priced it both ways). The center owner is a large real estate development company with many complexes, there are several other restaurants in this strip mall sharing the limited parking, I think their biggest financial hit will/would be the loss of parking to all businesses in the center.

 

[conarb]

1. (ADA does not require you to provide a restroom in resturaunts (sic), they also do not require you to lose income generating seating in existing resturaunts (sic) with non-compliant restrooms) "If provided" it must comply (they can be deleted if not required by local codes, but doing so inconviences (sic) "all" patrons). Provison (sic) requirements are based on local codes.

ADA Guy:

Your post is confusing, if the plumbing code requires the rest rooms then ADA is in effect requiring them since everyone is governed by the plumbing code.

 

[Min&Max]

Actually ADAguys' post is accurate. If the plumbing code requires a bathroom to be provided, the ADA requirements then require that bathroom to be ADA accessible. If the plumbing code does not require a bathroom but you choose to provide it anyway, the ADA requirements then require that bathroom to be ADA accessible.

 

[steveray]

If the plumbing code requires a bathroom the building code requires it to be accessible with VERY limited exceptions....No need to go to ADA.....

And I don't even have #3 yet....

1109.2 Toilet and bathing facilities.

Each toilet room and bathing room shall be accessible. Where a floor level is not required to be connected by an accessible route, the only toilet rooms or bathing rooms provided within the facility shall not be located on the inaccessible floor. At least one of each type of fixture, element, control or dispenser in each accessible toilet room and bathing room shall be accessible.

Exceptions:

1. In toilet rooms or bathing rooms accessed only through a private office, not for common or public use and intended for use by a single occupant, any of the following alternatives are allowed:1.1. Doors are permitted to swing into the clear floor space, provided the door swing can be reversed to meet the requirements in ICC A117.1;1.2. The height requirements for the water closet in ICC A117.1 are not applicable;1.3. Grab bars are not required to be installed in a toilet room, provided that reinforcement has been installed in the walls and located so as to permit the installation of such grab bars; and1.4. The requirement for height, knee and toe clearance shall not apply to a lavatory.

2. This section is not applicable to toilet and bathing rooms that serve dwelling units or sleeping units that are not required to be accessible by Section 1107.

3. Where multiple single-user toilet rooms or bathing rooms are clustered at a single location, at least 50 percent but not less than one room for each use at each cluster shall be accessible.

4. Where no more than one urinal is provided in a toilet room or bathing room, the urinal is not required to be accessible.

5. Toilet rooms that are part of critical care or intensive care patient sleeping rooms are not required to be accessible.

6. Where toilet facilities are primarily for children’s use, required accessible water closets, toilet compartments and lavatories shall be permitted to comply with the children’s provisions of ICC A117.

 

[ADAguy]

Min& Max, thank you.

My point beeing Conard, that if bathrooms are not required by the plumbing code and a complaintaint finds existing to be noncompliant and their is not enough room to expand them or cost is considered prohibitive, they can be removed.

Not good for business but if you don't have the dollars, and RRs are not provided, no compliance is required. Meets the letter of the ADA.

 

[Min&Max]

Existing restrooms are not required to meet ADA if: 1). They were constructed prior to ADA regs and a building permit has not been issued for that structure since ADA regs took effect, 2). Bathroom remodel exceeds 20% of the planned project cost. Although 20% of project cost must be applied to ADA mitigation, or 3). It is technically infeasible to modify/enlarge existing bathrooms. It is not necessary to remove non-ADA compliant bathrooms to insure that the entire customer populace suffers equally. That would be ridiculous and petty.

 

[mark handler]

Existing restrooms are not required to meet ADA if: 1). They were constructed prior to ADA regs and a building permit has not been issued for that structure since ADA regs took effect, 2). Bathroom remodel exceeds 20% of the planned project cost. Although 20% of project cost must be applied to ADA mitigation, or 3). It is technically infeasible to modify/enlarge existing bathrooms. It is not necessary to remove non-ADA compliant bathrooms to insure that the entire customer populace suffers equally. That would be ridiculous and petty.

And a restroom was not part of the renovation/remodel