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Agricultural No Building Permit Required

jar546

jar546

CBO
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
12,784
Location
Not where I really want to be
But then.................... See video

http://www.local12.com/news/features/troubleshooter/stories/no-building-permit-required-38.shtml#.UnJQhxbhAsw

We all know the importance of getting building permits when having work done on your home, but not all areas require them. That's what a Highland County woman learned, a little too late. Local 12 TroubleShooter Howard Ain says she's now run into problems. Susan Smyth wanted to have a pole barn built to use for her horses. Susan Smyth: "I wanted to build a facility where I could work with children who needed help, and adults, with horses basically using the horses for therapy." That was her ultimate goal, but first she needed the barn built and in Highland County no permit is required for agricultural use structures. Smyth: "From the very beginning, even after the building was constructed, I never could keep the main door adjusted. It was constantly out of adjustment. It never would shut right from the very beginning." Then she noticed one wall was buckling. "I saw a lot of it giving. A lot of changes and buckling in the wood structure. The poles, one of the poles actually bent." Howard Ain: "Smyth says when she had the ground dug up in this area to see what was going on she found several of the wood posts were not properly resting on the cement footers as they're supposed to, you can see that right here." Smyth says the builder told her it looks like fill dirt used in this area was washed away by rain. But because there was no permit, there was no inspection, so, she's not sure exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. Smyth: "I trusted, I trusted. I've spent a lot of money and I want my barn." So, I went to Highland County Engineer Dean Otworth who said a structural engineer is needed. Dean Otworth: "Where they are going to have significant dollars into that building then they would want to go ahead and hire a professional to do the design and also review site plan and make sure that the building is built according to plan." Now, following Dean Otworth's advice, Smyth says she will get a structural engineer to look at the problem and draw up plans how to fix it.

Read More at: http://www.local12.com/news/features/troubleshooter/stories/no-building-permit-required-38.shtml#.UnJQhxbhAsw
 
In Virginia, not only do farm buildings, not used as a licensed restaraunt or residence, not require permits they are completely exempt from the code, except for flood and mudslide regs. State Technical review board has variously ruled that this applies to a 3 story office building for a multilocation hog operation, using a barn for religious worship, and a 20 000 sq ft pole and plastic structure that was being used to sell plastic holiday decorations as well as plants in season. Farmers are deemed to be responsible for their own structures.
 
Here's the exemption in Kentucky:

Farm dwellings and other buildings. Farm dwellings

and other buildings and structures located on farms

which are incident to the operation of the farm and

located outside the boundary of a municipality; but

only if they are not used in the business of retail

trade, as a regular place of work for 10 or more

people or for the processing or storage of timber

products.

Not sure if this building was incidental to farming operations since it was being used as riding arena for therapy.

I don't understand why owners are allowed to invite the general public into their facilities and not get a permit or any inspections.
 
The issue becomes apparent when they want the exemption, do whatever they want they want to have hay rides and pumping picking events where the public is invited and they have cash registers set up. Loophole can be BS
 
Here is what NY State uses:

101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings.

Exceptions:

1. Detached one-and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) not more than three stories in height above grade with separate means of egress and their accessory structures shall comply with the Residential Code of New York State.

2. Agricultural buildings, including barns, sheds, poultry houses and other buildings and equipment on the premises used directly and solely for agricultural purposes.

There is an NYS "Technical Bulletin" explaining that a horse boarding building is considered agricultural, but a riding arena is not.

I think that's good guidance
 
Rick18071 said:
A 2,000 sq. foot pole buiding was going to be used to cut and store firewood to sell. We said get a permit. We lost in court.
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As long as they were not selling firewood with public customers at that building and it was just used for storage, I can see that. If they were, then I would use the back door of the DOJ to let them see the light.
 
jar546 said:
As long as they were not selling firewood with public customers at that building and it was just used for storage, I can see that. If they were, then I would use the back door of the DOJ to let them see the light.
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Having been in that business, I can tell you that firewood doesn't move well unless you deliver it. What I don't get is the need for a building to store what nature keeps outdoors.
 
ICE said:
Having been in that business, I can tell you that firewood doesn't move well unless you deliver it. What I don't get is the need for a building to store what nature keeps outdoors.
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I can see covered storage for inclement weather, more for comfort and ease than protecting the product. I would'nt want to find my stacks under 5 feet of snow, or have to load chords in the rain.

Brent.
 
MASSDRIVER said:
I can see covered storage for inclement weather, more for comfort and ease than protecting the product. I would'nt want to find my stacks under 5 feet of snow, or have to load chords in the rain.Brent.
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I can remember shoveling snow to find a foundation and then the lumber stack. The people back there are tougher than us. If Columbus had landed on the west coast, everything east of the Mississippi river would still be wilderness.

I wouldn't want to load chords in the rain either...so I wouldn't.
 
Storing firewood covered helps it season alot faster and it is dryer to burn better than wet wood. Nature keeps the wood outdoors to keep it wet so it can rot, at least in areas with wetter spring summer and fall. Arid areas out west with only winter snow are an exception.
 
MT

(8) The following modifications apply to riding arenas:

(a) Subsection 312.1 is amended by addition of the following paragraph: "Riding arenas limited to occupant loads of 200 or less and used for boarding, breeding, and training of horses, horse shows and competitions, clinics and rider instruction, and open riding are considered agricultural buildings subject to the provisions of Appendix Chapter C, as amended. Uses such as rodeos, barn dances, craft and other nonlivestock shows, conventions, and similar events which result in large numbers of spectators or occupants are not allowed in riding arenas classified as agricultural buildings."

(b) Appendix Chapter C, Subsection C101.1 is amended by addition of: "9. Riding arenas as defined in amended Subsection 312.1."

© Appendix Chapter C, Subsection C104.1 is amended by addition of the following sentences to Exception 2: "The portion of riding arena buildings where riding will occur or where spectators may be present or seating is provided shall be provided with a minimum of four exits directly to the outside, with the exits located in a manner acceptable to the department that enhances exit from spectator areas. Exits from this portion of the building shall not be provided with a latch or lock unless it is panic hardware."

(d) Appendix Chapter C, Subsection C104.1 is amended by addition of Exception 3: "Exit doors for riding arenas shall not be less than 3 feet wide by 6 feet 8 inches high."
 
Always has been problematic IMO, to not at least require or change the legisaltion to require an electrical permit, in light of the fact that ag structures are exempt from a building permit. This is a play on words.
The electrical utilites company insofar as I know does nothing more than bring the service to the meter can only"service entrance conductor" and yet premise wiring goes unabated without an electrical inspection. Curious if other states are doing the same as Virginia? Just recently a barn burned down from an electrical fire. Seems this would be worthy of challenging the legisaltion so as to make it a reality. What are other states and jurisdictions doing?
 
Back to the original post: As soon as I read that she wants to "work with children who needed help, and adults, with horses basically using the horses for therapy," my reaction was that she's out of the agricultural building exemption. She's now into an E or B occupancy, at the least, and depending on whatelse may be planned in that "barn" it may become an A occupancy.

I've seen several like that over the years.
 
The barn is a shelter for horses and a place to store tack. That which happens outside the barn has no bearing on the use of the farmer's barn. The failure of this one barn is by no means cause to screw with all barns going forward.

The lady hired an inexperienced builder. While of scant solace, there is the knowledge that he will probably do a better job of the next one.

 
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ICE said:
The barn is a shelter for horses and a place to store tack. That which happens outside the barn has no bearing on the use of the farmer's barn. The failure of this one barn is by no means cause to screw with all barns going forward.
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One person's "barn" is another person's indoor riding school and horse show arena, complete with spectator area and private viewing box. That's why I get concerned if they intend to conduct any programs other than just feeding horses and shoveling [___] out of the stalls.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
One person's "barn" is another person's indoor riding school and horse show arena, complete with spectator area and private viewing box. That's why I get concerned if they intend to conduct any programs other than just feeding horses and shoveling [___] out of the stalls.
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Well then, let's add a runway.
 
The NYS ag building is quite clear that other than entering to feed chickens or drive a tractor out of storage, not intended for human occupancy. That's the basis for not requiring compliance.

Now, I anticipate some will claim it will be used, as a shop or riding stable, and shouldn't be allowed. The legislators allowed this and so should building department. If you want to visit in a year and see if the owner was honest about their intent, fine.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
Back to the original post: As soon as I read that she wants to "work with children who needed help, and adults, with horses basically using the horses for therapy," my reaction was that she's out of the agricultural building exemption. She's now into an E or B occupancy, at the least, and depending on whatelse may be planned in that "barn" it may become an A occupancy.

I've seen several like that over the years.
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Had the same thing our way a couple of years ago.

"It's got horses, it's agricultural," said the applicant, who wanted the Farm Code.

"It's for classes, so now it has to meet Building Code," said I, "Plus, you hold public events, so you're into the nasty part of Code. Get a designer."

She never did.
 
Dang....I just got my wheelchair stuck in horse crap!
Ma...can I please use your ADA bathroom? Where's the key?

School buses lining up to tour the dairy, guess there's an exemption from getting from the gravel parking lot and up the stairs to the dairy?

Ag building was just fine being exempt...until it was open to the public, that changes things I would think.
 
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