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All doors out of a bldg required to be code compliant exits?

mtlogcabin

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A door is not a means of egress it is only one portion of the means of egress system and if you can't or don't comply with all of it then that door is simple that. A door that leads out of the building

[BE] EXIT. That portion of a means of egress system between the exit access and the exit discharge or public way. Exit components include exterior exit doors at the level of exit discharge, interior exit stairways and ramps, exit passageways, exterior exit stairways and ramps and horizontal exits.

[BE] EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.

[BE] MEANS OF EGRESS.
A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.
 

steveray

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Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.

The extra doors are not provided for egress purposes...
 

tmurray

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Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.

The extra doors are not provided for egress purposes...
Agreed. I think that section is trying to capture the doors that are not required, but have the exit sign above it anyway.
 

redeyedfly

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And this is why DPs get so frustrated with BOs. Just keep arguing a stupid point instead of admitting you're wrong.

The code can't get more clear. If you have a door that goes outside what else would you use it for? The intent is evident, the language is unambiguous. No landings required either?? And if it's more than 30" to grade on the other side, no problem according to another thread about windows.
 

bill1952

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I can only smile. Some of the nearly ballistic opposition in the code hearings - where everyone was in a big room and lined up at the mics - to my proposal to clarify this told me to just design all m.o.e. components - whether required or not - to the code requirements. Inevitably, at least some of the times you don't, you'll spend more time and money on change orders then it would cost to leave out a sign or use different hardware or change the size.

I'd also have trouble defending a man-door in an exterior wall as NOT intended for an occupant to leave the building. Besides the not an exit sign including one that disabled can read would cost more. It's just smart design IMHO.
 

ICE

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So there is a minimum requirement for door count out of a space but say your building has 12 doors to the exterior (assume warehouse with several convenience doors) and only (2) are required by code for exiting. Do you find in some jurisdictions that you are required to make all of those doors code compliant exits... with signage and access to public way/area of refuge?



1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system shall meet the requirements of this section and Section 1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.


The code requires a minimum number of means of egress doors. The code recognizes that there might be doors that facilitate egress that are not part of the minimum required means of egress. The code states that those extra doors provided for egress purposes shall meet the requirements of section 1010.
Section 1010.1 has two distinct types of doors....means of egress doors and doors provided for egress purposes. Well then a door is a door and there's code for all of them.
 

steveray

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Example.....I have a large assembly area with proper side side hinged egress doors and I want to put a slider or some other fancy alternative door in the middle...Likely wouldn't qualify for egress, but it does not need to if it is not provided for egress.....
 
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bill1952

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Example.....I have a large assembly area with proper side side hinged egress doors and I want to put a slider or some other fancy alternative door in the middle...Likely wouldn't qualify for egress, but it does not need to if it is not provided for egress.....
Slippery "not provided to for egress" vs "does not provide egress". But since it's available to able bodied people it of course has to meet all the requirements for people with disabilities.

Railings on a stair that's not required? Guard strength for a guard that's not required? No guards or curbs or handrails on a ramp that's not required?

Steveray - I think you are in the minority based on 40 years of designing nationwide, and a lot of code hearings and committee meetings God bless you!
 

Yikes

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Slippery "not provided to for egress" vs "does not provide egress". But since it's available to able bodied people it of course has to meet all the requirements for people with disabilities.

Railings on a stair that's not required? Guard strength for a guard that's not required? No guards or curbs or handrails on a ramp that's not required?

Steveray - I think you are in the minority based on 40 years of designing nationwide, and a lot of code hearings and committee meetings God bless you!
bill1952, I provided one code and one ADA citation in post #5 showing where not all exit doors are required to be accessible to persons with disabilities. If you have an alternate citation, please provide it.
 

bill1952

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bill1952, I provided one code and one ADA citation in post #5 showing where not all exit doors are required to be accessible to persons with disabilities. If you have an alternate citation, please provide it.
I forget if you're on they're all exit doors or only 2 are, but if they are not exit doors, what are they? If they are intended for something else, is it discrimination if disabled people can't use them for whatever else they are intended?

I've been told by members of the Board that even if I meet all the requirements, and everything is perfectly accessible, I can't add another door for convenience, like a short cut from a storage room, that isn't accesible.
 

Yikes

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and what if the sign is obscured by smoke?
The required exits have lighted exit signs that say "EXIT". Often they are both high and low exit signs.
When the non-required doors (and their signs) get obscured by smoke, then in that regard it's even MORE obvious which doors are the exit doors: they're the ones with the illuminated EXIT signs that you can still see.
 

Yikes

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I forget if you're on they're all exit doors or only 2 are, but if they are not exit doors, what are they? If they are intended for something else, is it discrimination if disabled people can't use them for whatever else they are intended?
According to the ADA excerpt that I quoted, up 40% of the doors leading out of a building can be non-accessible without violating ADA Standards.

I've been told by members of the Board that even if I meet all the requirements, and everything is perfectly accessible, I can't add another door for convenience, like a short cut from a storage room, that isn't accesible.
Ask the board to provide a citation for that opinion.
Also, just to be clear, we are not talking about entrances - -we are talking about leaving the building.
 

mtlogcabin

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If you have a door that goes outside what else would you use it for?

I have an event center that has more than the required number of exits that meet all the requirements for exiting to a public way or safe dispersal area. There are also 4 sets of double doors that have no panic hardware, no exit signs or emergency illumination identifying them as exit doors. These doors are primarily used during set up and dismantling the various events that happen there every week. If it is a car, boat or RV show they may park a unit directly in front of these doors.
During a gun show there are very strict state limitations on the amount of black powder, smokeless powder and small arms primers you can have in a building (about 1/2 of what the IFC permits) Vendors will park their trailer near the door so they can restock as needed throughout the weekend events.

They also save energy since it is better than opening the two 20ft X 16ft tall garage doors when it is less than 30 degrees outside or 90 to 100 degrees during the summer months.

Call them anything you want, just don't call them an exit
 

bill1952

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According to the ADA excerpt that I quoted, up 40% of the doors leading out of a building can be non-accessible without violating ADA Standards.


Ask the board to provide a citation for that opinion.
Also, just to be clear, we are not talking about entrances - -we are talking about leaving the building.
Actually no. The statement was made these additional doors are not intended for egress and therefore don't have to meet the requirements for doors in the means if egress.
 

bill1952

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I have an event center that has more than the required number of exits that meet all the requirements for exiting to a public way or safe dispersal area. There are also 4 sets of double doors that have no panic hardware, no exit signs or emergency illumination identifying them as exit doors. These doors are primarily used during set up and dismantling the various events that happen there every week. If it is a car, boat or RV show they may park a unit directly in front of these doors.
During a gun show there are very strict state limitations on the amount of black powder, smokeless powder and small arms primers you can have in a building (about 1/2 of what the IFC permits) Vendors will park their trailer near the door so they can restock as needed throughout the weekend events.

They also save energy since it is better than opening the two 20ft X 16ft tall garage doors when it is less than 30 degrees outside or 90 to 100 degrees during the summer months.

Call them anything you want, just don't call them an exit
Perfect. I hope all those non-egress doors are accessible so you don't didcriminate against vendors with disabilities.
 

steveray

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Lets start with only 2 MOE (from an area) need to be accessible by the IBC

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible
means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.

When they are not an AMOE they they need signage to the AMOE...

1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided

at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.
2. Inaccessible public toilets and bathing facilities.
3. Elevators not serving an accessible route.
4. At each separate-sex toilet and bathing room indicating
the location of the nearest family/assisted use toilet or
bathing room where provided in accordance with Section
1109.2.1.
5. At exits and exit stairways serving a required accessible
space, but not providing an approved accessible means
of egress, signage shall be provided in accordance with
Section 1009.10.
 

bill1952

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Lets start with only 2 MOE (from an area) need to be accessible by the IBC

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible
means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.

When they are not an AMOE they they need signage to the AMOE...

1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided

at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.
2. Inaccessible public toilets and bathing facilities.
3. Elevators not serving an accessible route.
4. At each separate-sex toilet and bathing room indicating
the location of the nearest family/assisted use toilet or
bathing room where provided in accordance with Section
1109.2.1.
5. At exits and exit stairways serving a required accessible
space, but not providing an approved accessible means
of egress, signage shall be provided in accordance with
Section 1009.10.
No disagreement on m.o.e. doors. It's the
The extra doors are not provided for egress purposes...
that I believe as an amenity in the space are required to be accesible.
 
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