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annunciator for electrically supervising automatic sprinkler system vs annunciator required by 3.2.4.9.(1)

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sunyaer

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This is from Ontario Building Code , Division B.

Does 3.2.4.10.(3) imply that when an automatic sprinkler system is installed, the fire alarm system needs to have an annunciator for the purpose of electrically supervising the automatic sprinkler system? Is this annunciator different than that required by 3.2.4.9.(1)?


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Annunciator

Only required per. 3.2.4.9.(1)


If not required by that section, than not required
 
cda said:
Annunciator

Only required per. 3.2.4.9.(1)


If not required by that section, than not required
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If not required by 3.2.4.9.(1), while when automatic sprinkler system is installed, an annunciator is still needed for electrical supervision of the automatic sprinkler system, correct?
 
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NFPA 72, 2013 edition

Definitions
3.3.20 Annunciator
A unit containing one or more indicator lamps, alphanumeric displays, or other equivalent means in which each indication provides status information about a circuit, condition, or location.

comment sometimes call a remote annunciator, tied to the FACU

3.3.102* Fire Alarm Control Unit (FACU)
A component of the fire alarm system, provided with primary and secondary power sources, which receives signals from initiating devices or other fire alarm control units, and processes these signals to determine part or all of the required fire alarm system output function(s).

comment the brains of the system, where all the input and output signals are handled usually having a display some times in a closet, sometimes in entry of the building.
 
sunyaer said:
If not required by 3.2.4.9.(1), while when automatic sprinkler system is installed, an annunciator is still needed for electrical supervision of the automatic sprinkler system, correct?
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Annunciator is an undefined term, the component of an annunciator needed to supervise automatic sprinkler system is not the same as that indicated in 3.2.4.9.(2), so when an annunciator indicated in 3.2.4.9.(2) is not required by 3.2.4.9.(1) and (3), a simple annunciator is still needed for the electrical supervision of automatic sprinkler system, please comment.
 
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sunyaer said:
Annunciator is an undefined term, the component of an annunciator needed to supervise automatic sprinkler system is not the same as that indicated in 3.2.4.9.(2), so when an annunciator indicated in 3.2.4.9.(2) is not required by 3.2.4.9.(1) and (3), a simple annunciator is still needed for the electrical supervision of automatic sprinkler system, please comment.
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Annunciator *is* a defined term in NFPA 72, which is loosely referred to in the NBC notes. Check OBC for references to the standard.
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NFPA 13 deals with sprinklers.

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The lesson here is that if something is not defined in Code, it may be defined, clarified or otherwise empowered in a document to which Code empowers through a reference.
 
Is there a different annunciator? No. These clauses simply state that the annunciator must display information. In this case related to the supervisory valves for standpipes and sprinklers.

Does this mean that a fire alarm system is required? No. Clause 3.2.4.1. dictates when a fire alarm system is required or not. The wording of sentences (2) and (3) actually indicate that we have a slightly different interpretation.

(2) indicates where the annunciator is required to be installed by the code. This means that if someone voluntarily installs a fire alarm, they are not bound to meet the requirements of this clause. However, (3) specifies where a fire alarm is installed. it does not differentiate between voluntary or involuntary installations. This means that it must be complied with anytime a fire alarm is installed.

Use of NFPA 72: Generally, CAN/ULC-S524 is the fire alarm standard used in Canada. NFPA 72 is only used in the OBC in relation to visual signals for smoke alarms. In the NBC the link is even less tenuous, only being referenced in the Notes section for voice communication.
 
tmurray said:
Is there a different annunciator? No. These clauses simply state that the annunciator must display information. In this case related to the supervisory valves for standpipes and sprinklers.
...
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This is my understanding to the question "when is an annunciator required for fire alarm system", please comment.

there are two cases:

1. When there is an automatic sprinkler system installed: 3.2.4.10.(3) implies that an annunciator must be available to display the supervisory signal of the automatic sprinkler system.

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2. Sentence 3.2.4.9.(3) implies that an annunciator shall be provided if more than one zone indicator is required in sentence (2) where there may be no sprinkler installed:

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The notification information from the annunciator helps responding fire fighters understand where the issue is (usually what storey). However, if there is only a single zone, it doesn't really help with anything (the zone is the whole building), which is why the exception exists.
 
tmurray said:
Use of NFPA 72: Generally, CAN/ULC-S524 is the fire alarm standard used in Canada. NFPA 72 is only used in the OBC in relation to visual signals for smoke alarms. In the NBC the link is even less tenuous, only being referenced in the Notes section for voice communication.
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Valid point - should have explained my reasoning a bit more:

CAN/ULC standards are difficult (impossible) to access unless you've got copies (and I don't); NFPA can be accessed for free....
 
tmurray said:
The notification information from the annunciator helps responding fire fighters understand where the issue is (usually what storey). However, if there is only a single zone, it doesn't really help with anything (the zone is the whole building), which is why the exception exists.
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What puzzles me is this:
is the following statement correct?

When there is an automatic sprinkler system installed, an annunciator (for the purpose of electrical supervision) is required regardless of how many zones the building has.
 
sunyaer said:
What puzzles me is this:
is the following statement correct?

When there is an automatic sprinkler system installed, an annunciator (for the purpose of electrical supervision) is required regardless of how many zones the building has.
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Only if it needs an annunciator. Keep in mind that 3.2.4.9.(4) would require electrical supervision to be done another way in that case.
 
tmurray said:
Only if it needs an annunciator. Keep in mind that 3.2.4.9.(4) would require electrical supervision to be done another way in that case.
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That makes sense now. But..., the red part is what I added, am I splitting hairs?

3.2.4.10. Electrical Supervision
...
(3) If a fire alarm system is installed in a building, except as provided by 3.2.4.9.(4), an automatic sprinkler system shall be electrically supervised to indicate a supervisory signal on the building fire alarm system annunciator for each of the following,
...
(5) If a fire alarm system is required in a building, except as provided by 3.2.4.9.(4), electrical supervision shall be provided to indicate, on the fire alarm system annunciator, a loss of power to a heat tracing cable that is installed to heat,
...
 
sunyaer said:
That makes sense now. But..., the red part is what I added, am I splitting hairs?

3.2.4.10. Electrical Supervision
...
(3) If a fire alarm system is installed in a building, except as provided by 3.2.4.9.(4), an automatic sprinkler system shall be electrically supervised to indicate a supervisory signal on the building fire alarm system annunciator for each of the following,
...
(5) If a fire alarm system is required in a building, except as provided by 3.2.4.9.(4), electrical supervision shall be provided to indicate, on the fire alarm system annunciator, a loss of power to a heat tracing cable that is installed to heat,
...
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It might be a good reminder for you, but it would not work as code language. It would basically allow someone to circumvent the requirement to use the annunciator where it must be provided by adding another notification signal.
 
tmurray said:
.. It would basically allow someone to circumvent the requirement to use the annunciator where it must be provided by adding another notification signal.
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What does “circumvent” mean here?
Would it work with “except as permitted by 3.2.4.9.(3) and provided by 3.2.4.9.(4)”?

My wording may be not perfect, but my point is that the statement “electrical supervision shall be provided to indicate, on the fire alarm system annunciator” is not strictly correct, since there may be no annunciator required and available there in some situations.
 
The way the code is worded, if there is an annunciator, the alert signal must be provided by the annunciator. If there is no annunciator, the alert signal must be provided by other means. Basically, the code does not give a choice in how someone is to provide the alert signal.

The way you have it worded, the alert signal may be provided by either the annunciator or another means.
 
———————————————————
3.2.4.10. Electrical Supervision
…
(3) If a fire alarm system is installed in a building, an automatic sprinkler system shall be electrically supervised to indicate a supervisory signal on the building fire alarm system annunciator for each of the following
———————————————————

Does the above statement imply / assume that there is an annunciator installed in the fire alarm system?
 
it provides for what to do when there is an annunciator, but would stop short of requiring one. That is the responsibility of 3.2.4.9.
 
tmurray said:
it provides for what to do when there is an annunciator, but would stop short of requiring one. That is the responsibility of 3.2.4.9.
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Oaky, but if 3.2.4.9. is not requiring one, where would the sprinkler supervisory signal to be shown?
 
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