Antifreeze Alternative?

[permitguy]

With the recent changes to NFPA 13, has anyone seen proposed alternatives to traditionally accepted antifreeze?

We've had a proposal to use this: http://tfschem.com/

There isn't much information on the website, and what is there almost seems too good to be true. We're seeking more information from them, especially regarding piping compatibility, testing for product degradation, etc. What are your thoughts?

 

[Insurance Engineer]

Looks like not listed or approved for antifreeze sprinkler systems....Yet. Maybe a good product BUT ..........

 

[cda]

I guess somehow you have to get past::::

7.6.2.1 Where sprinkler systems are supplied by potable water connections, the use of antifreeze solutions other than water solutions of pure glycerine (C.P. or U.S.P. 96.5 percent grade) or propylene glycol shall not be permitted

7.6.2.3 If potable water is not connected to sprinklers, the commercially available materials indicated in Table 7.6.2.3 shall be permitted for use in antifreeze solutions.

there is::

1.5 Equivalency.Nothing in this standard is intended to prevent the use of systems, methods, or devices of equivalent or superior quality, strength, fire resistance, effectiveness, durability, and safety over those prescribed by this standard.

1.5.1 Technical documentation shall be submitted to the authority having jurisdiction to demonstrate equivalency.

1.5.2 The system, method, or device shall be approved for the intended purpose by the authority having jurisdiction.

BUT since the maker will not say what is in the solution cannot help

 

[mark handler]

NFPA recommends "Consider alternatives to antifreeze"

But does not really give alternatives

http://www.nfpa.org/newsReleaseDetails.asp?categoryid=488&itemId=51151&rss=NFPAnewsreleases&cookie%5Ftest=1

Consider alternatives to antifreeze. It is important to remember that, while the TIAs to the NFPA sprinkler standards allow the limited use of antifreeze as an option to address freeze potential, they do not require the use of antifreeze in sprinkler systems. Both in designing new systems and evaluating existing systems, owners and contractors are encouraged to investigate other methods of maintaining wet pipe systems in environments where freezing of pipes may be a concern. Several alternative design options exist including the use of insulation, heating areas where sprinkler piping is run, or use of dry pipe and preaction systems in areas subject to freezing.

 

[Frank]

RPZ backflow preventer required for protection of potable water.

Need to see test results on flamability and on extinguishing capability as well as corrosivity to metals or compatability with CPVC.

This product might be an answer to the need for freeze protection but not the risk of intensifing fire on first application conundrum found with the permitted glycerine and glycols.

More information is needed

 

[fireguy]

A bit off topic, but if the building is properly designed, there should be no problems with freezing. We have 2 facilties where we have never had a problem with freezing. One building has a wet system. The roof is insulated and we have had no problems with freezing. There is an antifreeze loop protecting the roof over the patio. When we installed the antifreeze loop, we put test ports on both ends and we test both ends.

The other building has a wet and a dry system. The sprinkler piping has been tented with plastic sheeting. Insulation was blown on top of the piping. No problems in 20 + years.

We had a motel with a wet and a dry system. They had problems with the original install, and after having the pipeing repaired, called in an insulation company. The insulation company vacuumned out the blown in insulation, tented the pipe and blew in more insualation. Two years ago, we had a problem with the dry drains freezing. The problem was the condensation drains had only one valve and were not drained.

So far this freezing season, we have had 4 systems freeze and cause water damage. Each system froze because the system was not drained properly. Those systems that we drain, have had no problems. The best example of what happens when a dry system is properly maintained is a local school. They would not allow us to drain the dry systems (6 in the building), but they would not have thier people drain the system. Each year, we fixed from 1 to 4 broken pipes. The last 2 years they actually shut down the broken dry systems. This year, there was a change in management. Now a person is specifically assinged the job of draining the systems. To date, we have not had to fix broken pipes. The money saved will be spent on upgrading the fire alarm panel.

 

[RJJ]

I am with insurance engineer! Need more info.