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Are Internet Providers Skipping Permits in Your Jurisdiction?

jar546

CBO
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
12,799
Location
Not where I really want to be
Lately, I’ve been running into a recurring issue with internet providers installing new fiber optic network cables without pulling permits. These companies are not classified as utility providers, so they don’t fall under the same exemptions. While the underground work, often done through boring, is a concern, the bigger problem arises inside the buildings—specifically in Type I and Type II high-rise and mid-rise condominiums.

Once inside, they’re drilling and pulling cables into plenum spaces, leaving a trail of breaches in fire-rated assemblies. This compromises the fire safety of these structures and directly conflicts with the code requirements for maintaining rated separations.

I’m curious—are others seeing the same thing in their jurisdictions? If so, how are you handling it? Are you requiring permits for this type of work, enforcing corrective measures after the fact, or taking another approach? Let’s hear it—how are you addressing the risks these installations pose to fire-rated assemblies and overall code compliance?
 
We do require permits for this in commercial buildings. But the only time we catch them is when they are doing work in a building where we are already doing inspections, and it is not on the plans. This includes other low voltage work, alarms, phone lines, etc.
Biggest problem is when they go through plumes, fire protected walls and floors. They also don't like to support their wires above suspended ceilings too.

I have a project now in a courthouse where they were installing a new HVAC system where they are using the above the suspended ceiling space for plumes where they were not using them for plumes before. There was a tons of NM and low voltage wiring in the ceiling space that I made them change and made the cost of the project a lot higher. But the optic fiber was rated for plumes.
 
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Isn't this a local enforcement issue?

No, because in this state cable TV (and Internet) are regional monopolies, but they are not regulated. Their installers don't require any licensing, so when (not if) they install cable service or satellite dishes without taking out permits, there's no way for building officials to know, and no recourse if we find out. I've wasted many hours arguing with people at two different State agencies, to no avail.
 
In California the cable tv companies are under the radar. But just how strict should enforcement be? Is a permit required every tiome they get a new customer and string cable to the TV room? How about the Dish that gets mounted to the fascia? Do you not have enough to do already?

I get that Jeff has the cable people drilling where they shouldn't be drilling however, that is not because of a lack of oversight by permitting cable tv installations. They are gonna do that anyway. The first time that they get corrections will be the last time that they get a permit.

If the industry is regulated by the government for any purpose, that industry is a utility. Cell phone companies are regulated by the California Public Utilities Commission. Not a lot of doubt that they are a utility. They get a permit for the towers and equipment enclosures. They build like they are expecting something awful is about to happen. And they do get permits to build the towers, etc.

Now the rub. Every time they alter the antenna configuration or swap out any electronics they also get a permit. The way that they mount the antennas, you would have to smack the tower against a mountain before an antenna is coming off. Thor would not be able to bring down a cell tower. The footings are a CVS parking lot's worth of concrete and the slab for a couple refrigerator size cabinets is a foot thick on the plans and closer to two feet in the wild. There's two mats of rebar and a dozen ground rods. They do not cut corners.

Since wind governs I suppose you Floridians have to deliver the concrete by rail.
 
In California the cable tv companies are under the radar. But just how strict should enforcement be? Is a permit required every tiome they get a new customer and string cable to the TV room? How about the Dish that gets mounted to the fascia? Do you not have enough to do already?

Funny you should ask.

A number of years ago I ended my cable TV contract and switched over to satellite. Having seen what they typically do and not wanting a bunch of black spaghetti strung all around my house, I bought a spool of coax and prewired all the bedrooms, bringing all the cables up through the attic and out through the soffit at the point where the dish would have to be mounted. I left about three feet of each cable hanging out for them to make the connections to the dish.

A team of two guys who barely spoke English showed up. The first thing they wanted to do was to run a ground wire from the dish location to the metal downlead to the electric meter enclosure. To get there, the cable would have to run about 15 feet along the eave/soffit to the stone chimney, make a 90-degree turn, go out about three feet, make another 90-degree bend, run along the face of the chimney about six feet, make another 90-degree bend, run about 25 feet along the back of the house to the corner of the garage, make another 90-degree bend, run about 15 feet along the end of the house, then make a final 90-degree bend down to where they wanted to clamp onto the steel pipe downlead. All that wire on the outside of the house was exactly what I had wanted to avoid, so I sent them packing and started doing my homework.

This took place when I was at a former department. I asked the boss about grounding and bonding of satellite dish antennae, and he said he didn't know anything. BUT ... he knew the guy who at that time was the editor for the NFPA 70 Handbook, so the boss called up his editor friend and asked him. And his editor friend said "Yeah, there's probably something in here but I don't have a clue. Let me check it out and I'll get back to you." And he called back, either later that day or the next day. He confirmed that a satellite dish needs to be grounded AND BONDED. The length of the grounding conductor isn't supposed to exceed (IIRC) 20 feet, and is to be run straight, with no sharp bends.

Hmmm. So a run of roughly 75 feet with five 90-degree bends doesn't quite work. (Plus I still didn't want that black wire strung around the exterior of the house.) So I went to Lowe's, bought a ground rod and a bunch of #6 copper wire, drove the ground rod into the ground directly beneath where the dish would be mounted, ran #6 copper up to the eave, and then ran a length of #6 copper underground to the back of the house, through the basement, out the front, and connected it to the house grounding conductor system. Then I called the satellite company and told them they could send their installers back. Two guys showed up, in two trucks. These guys spoke English. I showed them where the dish had to go, explained that the ground was already in place and all they had to do was connect it, and they were ecstatic. It was a Friday afternoon and they were from out of state. They had been expecting to get home late that day. As it was, they had everything done and they were out of there within a half hour.

My point: Left to their own devices, the original crew would have put in an installation that was in complete violation of the NEC -- and, since they aren't required to be licensed electricians and the satellite companies aren't in any way licensed or regulated, if I hadn't started poking into it nobody would have been any the wiser. Unless a lightning strike caused a problem. And even then probably nobody would have figured out that the fire was caused by a non-compliant ground on the satellite dish. This state doesn't require permits for this work -- but it's regulated by the NEC, so we should require permits, and there should be some sort of license required for the wire stringers.

See NEC 820.100(A)(4) and (A)(5). Also 820.100(B), (C), and (D).
 
See NEC 820.100(A)(4) and (A)(5). Also 820.100(B), (C), and (D).
Article 820 is for "Community Antenna Television and Radio Distribution Systems." Oddly, that term is not defined, but I understand "community" to mean a central antenna installed and shared among multiple properties, with a cable distribution system that extends across property lines. So it would not apply to a satellite TV dish on your house, where the cables are all on your property.

Article 810 is "Radio and Television Equipment" and its scope does appear to cover your satellite TV dish. Interestingly, 810.6 does not require a surge protector on the satellite cable, but does require that if one is used it be connected to a grounding electrode. And 810.21 on Bonding Conductors and Grounding Electrode Conductors for this application does not have a 20' limit. It does have a requirement that the bonding conductor be run "in as straight a line as practicable."

Cheers, Wayne
 
Article 820 is for "Community Antenna Television and Radio Distribution Systems." Oddly, that term is not defined, but I understand "community" to mean a central antenna installed and shared among multiple properties, with a cable distribution system that extends across property lines. So it would not apply to a satellite TV dish on your house, where the cables are all on your property.

Article 810 is "Radio and Television Equipment" and its scope does appear to cover your satellite TV dish. Interestingly, 810.6 does not require a surge protector on the satellite cable, but does require that if one is used it be connected to a grounding electrode. And 810.21 on Bonding Conductors and Grounding Electrode Conductors for this application does not have a 20' limit. It does have a requirement that the bonding conductor be run "in as straight a line as practicable."

Cheers, Wayne

I had the same reservation. The editor of the NFPA 70 Handbook said it applies. The language specifically refers to one- and two-family residences. My [former] boss agreed that it applies. Good enough for me. YMMV.
 
If this is all you folks have to gripe about, be happy. I have to fight to have *electricians* take out permits for doing things like drilling holes through firewalls and fire separations in public buildings.

Too true.

The reality is that replacing a switch or a receptacle in a single family house requires a permit. It's extremely unlikely that anyone, anywhere, ever takes out a permit for something that minor but -- technically -- a permit is required.
 
See NEC 820.100(A)(4) and (A)(5). Also 820.100(B), (C), and (D).
OK, looking more closely at the scope in 820.1, I agree that 820 applies to any use of coaxial cable, thanks.

Note that 820.100 Exception would apply to your satellite dish system, and it permits grounding the coax cable shield by connecting to any EGC. Although it requires a more permanent connection than one that depends on a cord and plug, so e.g. it would not be enough for a receiver unit that plugs into a receptacle to do the grounding via that plug connection.

Anyway the exception means that 820's requirements of 20' or less isn't mandatory for your install. However, I misread 810, which applies to the antenna, and it has similar requirements in 810.20 and 810.21. That includes the "as straight a line as practicable" requirement, but no 20' requirement.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Too true.

The reality is that replacing a switch or a receptacle in a single family house requires a permit. It's extremely unlikely that anyone, anywhere, ever takes out a permit for something that minor but -- technically -- a permit is required.

I don't care a rat's posterior if you rewire half your house (as long as you ain't addin' bedrooms where we might want to be aware of egress, etc.).

I do care if you're running wire through firewalls or fire-rated partitions in a two-storey, assembly occupancy building. Because based on the evidence I've gained, nobody firestops a blasted thing unless there's a building official breathing over their shoulders.
 
Haven't issued a permit for the cable guy feeding a house, however our muni required the installer to have a business license with COI (insurance) when they were in the Right-of-Way they had to pull a ROW construction permit. Several times they we're the ones that damaged other utilities and their heavy trucks would damage sidewalks.

We had no control over state or county ROW permitting. Our regulations allowed for the big internet and cable providers to get a yearly ROW permit to expedite the permit process.

Now a condo or apartment complex could give you a big problem fishing wire or routing wire to the units.
 
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