Assembly or business?

[Nicole Brooks]

I am working on a real estate office. There is a 648 sf training room and a 555 sf break room, the other 6200 sf is office use . The reviewer wants me to put panic hardware on all of the exit/ exit access doors. See below for permit comment and my response. He came back with the exact same comment a second time.

Reviewer: There are over 50 people in the assembly occupancies in the space, please provide panic hardware on the egress doors from the suite.

Response: I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this code. IBC section 303.2.1 (2) A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 sf in area and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy. Further, IBC 1010.2.9 Swinging doors serving a Group H occupancy and swinging doors serving rooms or spaces with an occupant load of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock other than panic hardware or fire exit hardware. As all of these gathering spaces are less than 750 sf, they are considered a B occupancy, not an A or an E. Training room 337 is 648 sf and the break room is 555 sf.

 

[JPohling]

I agree with your interpretation. You do not have an A occupancy and no need for panics at the room or the path to exit

 

[mtlogcabin]

I agree also with your application of the uses and occupancy classification.

304.1 Business Group B.
Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts. Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy).

 

[Yikes]

Agreed, B occupancy.

If the reviewer is still nervous and you need to wrap this up and don't have time for a fight, you can throw them a bone and offer to post a sign showing the maximum occupant load at 49.

The reviewer needs to keep in mind that table 1004.5, which determines occupant load factor, relates to "function of space", not "occupancy classification of space". So if the reviewer is looking at that table and sees "Assembly without fixed seats - unconcentrated (tables and chairs)" at 15 SF/person, that does not compel it to become an assembly occupancy any more than your dining table at home would be considered an assembly occupancy.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

The reviewer needs to keep in mind that table 1004.5, which determines occupant load factor, relates to "function of space", not "occupancy classification of space". .

it boggles the my mind how often I need to explain this to people in my office.

 

[north star]

$ ~ $

Trying to explain the various Construction Codes & Standards
to an untrained person is very frustrating........They do not understand
what you are trying to say, and do not want to learn.........It has been
my experience that The Human Factor usually wants the quickest
solution, without having to learn another language and yet another
set of "do's & don'ts ( i.e. - the Codes & Standards ).

I have seen that look in many of persons eyes and the expressions
on their faces when the specifics and requirements of the Codes,
...come up !...........And, realistically, ...whenever the topic of Accessibility
Codes comes up, ...most able bodied people do not understand what
all the fuss & requirements are about.

$ ~ $

 

[steveray]

Trying to explain the various Construction Codes & Standards
to an untrained person is very frustrating........They do not understand
what you are trying to say, and do not want to learn...

Explaining to a "trained" person is even harder...

 

[BRodgers]

continuing with this thread I'm still having a hard time with304.1
"Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy)."

I currently have a 5800 sqf martial arts studio without spectator seating calling itself a B. My gut reaction was to call it a A3. ive talked to quite a few different professionals and 50% say B and 50% say >50 OC is a A3. even the commentary addresses that over 50 "may" be considered an A not "Shall". 303.1.1 already clarifies that an A less than 50 is a B so it would be redundant and unclear to put this under a B if that was the intent. martial arts was only added to the code in 2015 and if that was the intent then shouldn't martial arts be labeled as an A instead of a B.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I am working on a real estate office. There is a 648 sf training room and a 555 sf break room, the other 6200 sf is office use . The reviewer wants me to put panic hardware on all of the exit/ exit access doors. See below for permit comment and my response. He came back with the exact same comment a second time.

Reviewer: There are over 50 people in the assembly occupancies in the space, please provide panic hardware on the egress doors from the suite.

Response: I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this code. IBC section 303.2.1 (2) A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 sf in area and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy. Further, IBC 1010.2.9 Swinging doors serving a Group H occupancy and swinging doors serving rooms or spaces with an occupant load of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock other than panic hardware or fire exit hardware. As all of these gathering spaces are less than 750 sf, they are considered a B occupancy, not an A or an E. Training room 337 is 648 sf and the break room is 555 sf.

You are incorrect in your understanding.

The training room is classified as part of the B use group for purposes of regulating building height and area, but the use of that space is assembly. If the occupant load is calculated at a ratio of 1 person per 7 square feet (movable seating, no tables), the occupant load of that room along is 93 people.

Since the training room will have an occupant load of more than 50, panic hardware is correct.

If you insist on calling the training room "Business," then you would have to calculate the occupant load according to the business ratio and post the room for an occupant load of 5 people (at 150sf/person) or 7 people (at 100sf/person).

 

[Nicole Brooks]

You are incorrect in your understanding.

The training room is classified as part of the B use group for purposes of regulating building height and area, but the use of that space is assembly. If the occupant load is calculated at a ratio of 1 person per 7 square feet (movable seating, no tables), the occupant load of that room along is 93 people.

Since the training room will have an occupant load of more than 50, panic hardware is correct.

If you insist on calling the training room "Business," then you would have to calculate the occupant load according to the business ratio and post the room for an occupant load of 5 people (at 150sf/person) or 7 people (at 100sf/person).

I'm afraid to break the news to you, that I am in fact not incorrect. I sent a code interpretation request to ICC and they ruled that I was correct in my inserpretation and assesment. I sent the response to the AHJ and it was accepted.

 

[Nicole Brooks]

continuing with this thread I'm still having a hard time with304.1
"Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy)."

I currently have a 5800 sqf martial arts studio without spectator seating calling itself a B. My gut reaction was to call it a A3. ive talked to quite a few different professionals and 50% say B and 50% say >50 OC is a A3. even the commentary addresses that over 50 "may" be considered an A not "Shall". 303.1.1 already clarifies that an A less than 50 is a B so it would be redundant and unclear to put this under a B if that was the intent. martial arts was only added to the code in 2015 and if that was the intent then shouldn't martial arts be labeled as an A instead of a B.

5800 sf is a large space, you are easliy over 50 occupants, It's an assembly occupancy any way to slice it. If it's even a question I would always go with Assembly and all the other code implications that It entails.

 

[Yikes]

continuing with this thread I'm still having a hard time with304.1
"Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy)."

I currently have a 5800 sqf martial arts studio without spectator seating calling itself a B. My gut reaction was to call it a A3. ive talked to quite a few different professionals and 50% say B and 50% say >50 OC is a A3. even the commentary addresses that over 50 "may" be considered an A not "Shall". 303.1.1 already clarifies that an A less than 50 is a B so it would be redundant and unclear to put this under a B if that was the intent. martial arts was only added to the code in 2015 and if that was the intent then shouldn't martial arts be labeled as an A instead of a B.

I encountered this many times when I worked on membership fitness centers (similar to 24 hour fitness, LA Fitness, etc.). These centers had gyms with a basketball court for pickup games. The most I would see on this court was 10 guys playing and a few on the sidelines waiting to be rotated in or for their court reservation time slot. However, Chapter 10 think of gymnasiums as a having a giant high school pep rally or graduation, with hundreds of people.

Fortunately, IBC 1004.5 (exception) is perfect for this situation, allowing a lower occupant load to be calculated (and posted) when it is appropriately matches reality.
to be extra generous, we usually do (2) five-person teams per half-court x (2) half-courts = 20 people, plus that same amount waiting on the sidelines = 40 people in the gym. From there you can decide with the building official whether that constitutes A or B.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I encountered this many times when I worked on membership fitness centers (similar to 24 hour fitness, LA Fitness, etc.). These centers had gyms with a basketball court for pickup games. The most I would see on this court was 10 guys playing and a few on the sidelines waiting to be rotated in or for their court reservation time slot. However, Chapter 10 think of gymnasiums as a having a giant high school pep rally or graduation, with hundreds of people.

Fortunately, IBC 1004.5 (exception) is perfect for this situation, allowing a lower occupant load to be calculated (and posted) when it is appropriately matches reality.
to be extra generous, we usually do (2) five-person teams per half-court x (2) half-courts = 20 people, plus that same amount waiting on the sidelines = 40 people in the gym. From there you can decide with the building official whether that constitutes A or B.

Heh, heh -

Many years ago the firm I worked for was engaged as code consultants on a university gymnasium project. They wanted to build a HUGE gym -- three full-sized basketball courts, but no bleachers. It was for practice and intramural games -- they had the "game" court in another building, which was semi-historic and in full uses. So the architects had a couple of doors and they were going to declare an occupant load of 49 people, based on three games with 10 people each, plus a few spectators and officials.

So, knowing the university, the first question we asked was if this was going to be the largest indoor space on the campus. Answer: "Oh, yes, by far the largest."

So then we asked if it rained on graduation day, might they consider holding graduation in this building? "Well, of course."

How many people attend graduation? "Around three thousand."

The architects added a LOT of doors.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Back to the OP, the code is specific that if the room or space is less than 750 Sq. Ft. they are an "A" occupancy.


303.1.2 Small assembly spaces.
The following rooms and spaces shall not be classified as Assembly occupancies:

1. A room or space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.

2. A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 square feet (70 m2) in area and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.

 

[JPohling]

Mtlog..............you left out a critical word. "they are NOT

 

[classicT]

You are incorrect in your understanding.

The training room is classified as part of the B use group for purposes of regulating building height and area, but the use of that space is assembly. If the occupant load is calculated at a ratio of 1 person per 7 square feet (movable seating, no tables), the occupant load of that room along is 93 people.

Since the training room will have an occupant load of more than 50, panic hardware is correct.

If you insist on calling the training room "Business," then you would have to calculate the occupant load according to the business ratio and post the room for an occupant load of 5 people (at 150sf/person) or 7 people (at 100sf/person).

NOOOOO!!! So far from right.

Ch. 3 and Ch. 10 share the use of the word business, but in entirely different meanings. Ch. 3 establishes a use and occupancy classification of Group-B "Business". Whereas, Ch. 10, specifically Section 1004, uses business as it relates to the function of a space, meaning the normative business environment consisting of private offices, cubicles, etc.

Take for example, you have a building full of offices. Clearly a Group-B. But in that building, you have a small conference room. Less than 750sf, less than 50 occ. Clearly this conference room is not a Group-A occupancy. But, per Table 1004.5, the function of this space is Assembly w/out fixed seats - Unconcentrated tables and chairs (15 net).

It is no different for a Group B building. A karate facility is classified as a Group B training and skill development use/occupancy. The function of the space, as per 1004.5, would be as an exercise room (50 gross) or an alternate value as approved by the BO.

You are conflating the function of the space and the occupancy.

 

[Yikes]

You are conflating the function of the space and the occupancy.

This was exactly the point of posts #4 and 5 earlier in this thread.
Table 1004.5 for determination of occupant load does not say "occupancy classification of space" - - it says "function of space".



Once the occupant load count for each space has been determined, either by "function of space" in Table 1004.5 or its exception to reduce occupant load, then the next step is to see if that resulting count is less than 49, which then changes the occupancy classification per 303.1.1 or 2.

 

[walker.t]

5800 sf is a large space, you are easliy over 50 occupants, It's an assembly occupancy any way to slice it.

Can you help me understand why you say the martial arts studio is an A occupancy when 304.1 (list of Business Group B examples) includes martial arts studios?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Can you help me understand why you say the martial arts studio is an A occupancy when 304.1 (list of Business Group B examples) includes martial arts studios?

For purposes of building height and allowable area, it is a B occupancy classification. For occupant load, under Table 1004.5 I would look at Exercise Room for the function, and if the resulting occupant load is 50 or more that makes the space an assembly use within a B occupancy group.

 

[mtlogcabin]

It would also be a "B" occupancy with regards to Chapter 9 requirements.

 

[classicT]

if the resulting occupant load is 50 or more that makes the space an assembly use within a B occupancy group.

Huh? Where are you coming up with that?

If it is a martial arts studio and there is no spectator seating, there is no assembly - function (Ch. 10) nor occupancy (Ch. 3).

 

[walker.t]

For purposes of building height and allowable area, it is a B occupancy classification. For occupant load, under Table 1004.5 I would look at Exercise Room for the function, and if the resulting occupant load is 50 or more that makes the space an assembly use within a B occupancy group.

I think we’re talking about two different things. Your comment about a 50-person occupant load relates to incidental uses, I was asking about comments made about a (presumably) standalone 5800 s.f. martial arts studio (therefore not incidental to anything else.) BRodgers said:

I currently have a 5800 sqf martial arts studio without spectator seating calling itself a B. My gut reaction was to call it a A3. ive talked to quite a few different professionals and 50% say B and 50% say >50 OC is a A3. even the commentary addresses that over 50 "may" be considered an A not "Shall". 303.1.1 already clarifies that an A less than 50 is a B so it would be redundant and unclear to put this under a B if that was the intent. martial arts was only added to the code in 2015 and if that was the intent then shouldn't martial arts be labeled as an A instead of a B.

I don’t see why their gut feeling is directing them to A-3 because 304.1 says martial arts studios are Business occupancies.

In response to the description of the martial arts studio, Nicole Brooks said:

5800 sf is a large space, you are easliy over 50 occupants, It's an assembly occupancy any way to slice it. If it's even a question I would always go with Assembly and all the other code implications that It entails.

I’m not seeing where the code supports such a strong statement as “Any way [you] slice it.” I can’t think of anything in the code that says that a non-Assembly occupancy space (such as this martial arts studio listed as a Business occupancy in 304.1) becomes an Assembly occupancy when the occupant load is greater than 50. The 2018 IBC Illustrated Handbook makes a comment about big-box Mercantile occupancies, it notes they can have very large occupant loads but the density of the occupancy isn’t as high an Assembly occupancy - basically saying there’s more to an Assembly occupancy than just the occupant load.

The only reference to 50 occupants I have found is 303.1.2 (Small Assembly Spaces.) 303.1.2 applies to small buildings and tenant spaces that start out as Assembly occupancies but because they are so small and have few enough occupants they can be classified as a different occupancy. The martial arts studio starts out as Business per 304.1, I don’t see how the two users I quoted above think it should be Assembly.

 

[JPohling]

I would venture to say that any martial arts studio in the 5800 SF range will host tournaments and events for the parents to come and watch. It will more than likely be used for assembly.

 

[Yikes]

Brodgers, is the 5800 Sf space a single room? Or is it broken up with restrooms, storage, reception area, locker rooms, etc.?

JPohling, when "Martial Arts Studios" was added to the list of B training occupancies in 2015, do you suspect that the code committee was unaware of how the studios get used occasionally for a gathering?

I feel like this is drifting towards old discussions of what CBC 302.1 meant by classifying the PRIMARY use.
Otherwise, there are even many many single family residences that have been known to exceed 50 occupants when the partying gets good.