Astragal Question

[lhughes]

Police are looking at recommending elementary schools add a metal astragal (strip to cover gap between doors) to double doors exiting from gymnasium and doors into stairways. Doors have panic hardware on inside and top and bottom locks. Doors are capable of being locked from the nonegress side. Question is: 1. will the metal astragal impeded egress if it is installed on the active or main leaf but the dead leaf or non-astragal door is opened first as you will need to open both doors to get it to open requiring more force. 2. The doors will not relatch if the active leaf closes first and is held open by the astragal.

Police want the astragal to prevent someone from inserting a J hook device and unlocking the doors. Has anyone encountered this or any similar experience with security issues conflicting with egress?

 

[cda]

Keep police out of code issues or educate them

""""Has anyone encountered this or any similar experience with security issues conflicting with egress?"""""

All the time and not just a pd thing

Door guru will give out some philosophy on the issue

 

[LGreene]

Overlapping astragals are not allowed to impede egress, which I'm sure you already know. I'm about to go all hardwarey right now so get ready.

If the doors have panic hardware, there are 2 typical scenarios. In both cases, the overlapping astragal will impede egress regardless of which leaf it is installed on. The astragal can also have a negative effect on security. Read on if your eyes have not glazed over yet.

Scenario 1) Vertical rod panic hardware (either concealed or surface-mounted) on both doors - If there is an overlapping astragal installed on the exterior, the door that is being overlapped by the astragal can not be opened unless the other door is opened first. This is not acceptable by code. I can find you a reference if you need it.

Scenario 2) Rim panic hardware on both doors, with a removable mullion - Again, the door being overlapped by the astragal can not be opened unless the other door is opened first.

In both of these cases, if both doors are opened, and the one with the astragal closes first, the other door will not close because the door will sit open on the astragal.

3) In very rare cases, you will see a mortise panic device (latches into the edge of the other door) on one leaf, and a vertical rod panic (latches top and bottom) on the other door. In this case, you could have an astragal attached to the door with the mortise device, overlapping the door with the vertical rods. If someone pushes the door with the vertical rods, it will push the other door along with it, so it isn't usually an egress problem. But you will have the same security problem of the wrong door closing first unless there is a coordinator installed. Coordinators don't work well, and I don't recommend this application. Like I said, it's rarely used.

There is a photo here of 2 vertical rod panics with an astragal: http://www.idighardware.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/svr-with-astragal.jpg. The astragal is on the inside, but you have the same problem. If you push on the door to the right, it won't open unless the door on the left is opened first.

If that's not clear, let me know. I can find more photos.

 

[TheCommish]

Lori you need to change your signature, I here your company name changed

as to the question, astragals do not work. They violate the codes on motion to open any egress door which can not happen on the inactive door.

if the gap is big enough to get a hook in and operate the new style panic hardware it is probably to big

a possible answer is a interior mullion between the doors, also helps with keeping the weather out

 

[cda]

http://traditionstraining.com/panic-hardware-made-easy/

 

[LGreene]

Lori you need to change your signature, I here your company name changed

Thanks Commish - you're right! I've worked for the company for 19 years, so I'm having a hard time getting the name changed everywhere I've left my fingerprints.