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B/S2 - Fire separation - lot line questions

jeffo

Registered User
Joined
Nov 12, 2021
Messages
24
Location
Texas
Hi,

I posted before and got some real good answers, but I believe I could have posted it better with more detail.

My property is a 1.6 Acre track, with 3 buildings on it. Two buildings sit on the property lines and one in the middle. The buildings are all 30-40 years old, and were on the property as situated when I purchased over 15 years ago. The adjacent property was also originally owned my property and had set it up this way.

We were planning on adding on to each of the three warehouses, thus the city stated they did not have an occupancy for us and needed to come out. I am honestly not sure how this is as we have had permits before from the city and when we moved in did all our paperwork.

The city came back with the following that is our concern that we must remedy:

Based on the it is B use and S2. I believe this building is not sprinklered, according to 508.4 of IBC 2015 a two hour fire seperation is required which a permit is required. plans will be required, signed and sealed by a State of Texas licensed engineer. Three sets. There are also issues with zero or near zero lot lines and multiple buildings on the same lot.

Attached is my survey, and the survey/diagram of what we plan to add. The zero or near zero lot line -- honestly I am green to this and not sure what this means or how it effects us. The buildings on the lot lines are just storage warehouses with zero office space. The main one in the center has been built out inside.
survey1.jpg

addition.jpg


For the firewall/separation, I have included a pic (pano) I took from within the warehouse (the main one that is not on the lot lines). Am I just looking at adding the 2 hour wall of gypsum? My concern with it is I know the door will need to be a new door, but see the opening with the "meat locker flaps", we roll our pallets through there. We mount tires in there and have our gym equipment. Not per se office space but we have a wall unit on a window to keep it cool. What do I do with the entrance to this?

As usual, thanks alot to those that post!
image0.jpeg
 
Looks like an auto repair garage that would be classified as a S-1. an S-1 and a B have no separation requirements, so if you can use the S-1 occupancy then you would not need a separation. A garage is an S-2 so that may be an issue?
 
Wish there was someone also in my area to consult with on this. My engineer wants $2800 to add this in a 2D drawing. Is that about right? I work with 2D's all day and it seems like it should not be but 2-3 hours of work at most to draw it up in CAD/Solidworks or any dwg program -- but maybe I am unrealistic!
 
Kinda what I thought! I figured the experts in this forum may be able to advise.
 
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Any time a stamp and seal is required it is going to cost a lot more. Some have a minimum amount for everything everything they do.

The building in the picture may be small enough to be able to meet the non-separated uses portion and not install any fire partitions/barriers
508.3
 
I stick with my statement, I have been doing this $hit over 40 years and I know a pirate when I see or hear about one anyone charging 1400 per hr should be required to have a tattoo of the Jolly Roger on their forehead, so you know who you're dealing with
AGAIN there is not one on this planet worth 1400 per Hr. in this profession
 
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How big is the addition that you are putting on to each building? It may be worth exploring whether the added area actually warrants this separation. Note that IBC Section 508 gives you three possible options for a mixed occupancy building: separated, non-separated and accessory. If you can meet the requirements for non-separated or accessory, you would not be required to provide a separation between the occupancy types. In other words, the code does not force you to use the separated approach if one of the others is viable!

Would need to look at specific areas to tell for sure. Feel free to send me a DM and I can try and look at it further.
 
How big is the addition that you are putting on to each building? It may be worth exploring whether the added area actually warrants this separation. Note that IBC Section 508 gives you three possible options for a mixed occupancy building: separated, non-separated and accessory. If you can meet the requirements for non-separated or accessory, you would not be required to provide a separation between the occupancy types. In other words, the code does not force you to use the separated approach if one of the others is viable!

Would need to look at specific areas to tell for sure. Feel free to send me a DM and I can try and look at it further.
Sent ya a message. Thanks
 
There is not a on this planet worth $1400.00 dollars a hour
There are plenty of businesses that are worth what people are willing to pay them. This is a free market society so if someone wants to charge $2,800 for drawings, let them. The customer can always get another price or take their business elsewhere. This is the basis for a capitalist society.
 
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Sports players, actors and some lawyers earn more than that per hour

That makes Alex Rodriquez's paycheck from the New York Yankees look downright pauperish: ARod earns about $170,000 a game, or about $56,500 an hour based on the average 3-hour length of a Yankee game.
 
I edited several of the posts here to remove the profane language. I recommend this forum to friends and coworkers….some of which are women. I can’t do that if they are going to see vulgarity. Anything beyond a shlt, damn or pissed just doesn’t cut it.
 
I edited several of the posts here to remove the profane language. I recommend this forum to friends and coworkers….some of which are women. I can’t do that if they are going to see vulgarity. Anything beyond a shlt, damn or pissed just doesn’t cut it.
Thank you ICE. I was not a fan of the language used either.

Let's keep it professional!
 
This conversation appears to have morphed into a "why do design professionals charge so much?" thread.
I'll bite.

First of all, a professional hourly rate is often much higher than their take-home pay. Wage multipliers in the A&E industry are typically around 2.6 and can get up to 4.0+, depending on overhead, benefits, taxes, professional liability insurance, etc.

Second, if a stamp and seal is required, that means the design professional of record (DPOR) is taking responsibility for the code compliance of your building designs and occupancy classifications. You are paying for the risk they have assumed (as well as repaying their earlier investment in education, training, licensing, etc. buried in the fee multiplier.) So they either have to spend the time proving everything complies, or they have to spend their time crafting a contractual agreement with you that limits their scope of work and liability in such a way that it doesn't come back to bite them later if something was noncompliant.

Third, and don't take this personally, but many DPOR's have been burned by other property owners who misrepresented the nature of the project: the actual use vs their claimed use, whether everything was done under permit vs. bootlegged, whether the construction of a fire wall was really built per plans, etc. The DPOR needs to spend sufficient time to wrap their head aroung the project so that they cn see the bigger picture.

*
If this project were in my area. the hours factored into my fee would be based on:
  • "Business development" time buried into the proposal: recouping the time for the initial call / emails, an initial site visit / meeting with you (including drive time) to verify everything was as represented in the calls.
  • Time to confirm copyright permission to utilize drawings (such as surveys) prepared by others.
  • Research at city to confirm existing permits and certificates of occupancy (more than half of the time, clients don't have the available records from the city, or they confuse an old jobsite inspection card with a C of O)
  • Drawing time, as you have mentioned
  • Checking zoning code as well as building code. This may include researching old code archives to see if the nonconforming condition was actually allowed at time of original building construction.
  • Performing allowable area calcs based on occupancy, construction type, fire protection, location on property, allowble openings, including yard calcs if needed.
  • Labeling the fire-rated walls and providing code-approved or UL-listed wall assemblies
  • Checking to see if any remedial work / alterations are required
  • Checking to see if remedial work would trigger ADA or other accessibility codes.
  • Printing the plans

Other potential work:
  • Meeting with the building officials (often needed when the building official suspects an existing condition is not code-compliant)
  • Advising you if these code implications on your other plans for additions to the existing buildings.
Notice how quickly this can all add up. I can quote you a higher fee to cover it all at the start; or I can lowball you for 2 hours of pure drawing work, and then deal with the ongoing renegotiation every time something exceeds my original proposal - -and you'll remember me not as the guy who tried to minimize the fee to save you money up-front, but they guy who gave you death by 10,000 cuts.

With that in mind: these are very busy times for many DPORs, and if I have the choice of taking on 10 small projects under the conditions described above vs. one big project, I'll take the one big project - - unless someone makes the small project worth my interest.
 
Actually I do not want or desire this to morph into a financial discussion.

The person that quoted us had done other work before and been paid for it. Was familiar with the area, but does not appear to be familiar with the building codes which are not some oblique vague codes. He had been out before previously and was aware of the building and the scope from a previous job.

I have had a conversation with someone on the forum here that seems far more knowledgeable than my current person I am using, and am looking for an PE or Arch. that is local that can confirm a few things to move the project along. The old person I had used sent me multiple invoices that had line items that did not even add up -- sloppy work which I have a low tolerance for.
 
I can quote you a higher fee to cover it all at the start; or I can lowball you

Very similar to the contractors who quote a low sq ft charge for construction with a $2.00 sq ft flooring allowance and a $1,200 lighting allowance, Cabinet and appliance allowances and on and on just to get the job knowing full well their sq ft quote will probably double.
 
Very similar to the contractors who quote a low sq ft charge for construction with a $2.00 sq ft flooring allowance and a $1,200 lighting allowance, Cabinet and appliance allowances and on and on just to get the job knowing full well their sq ft quote will probably double.
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