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Board of health abuse of power?

M

Mrgomez7

Registered User
Joined
Nov 24, 2020
Messages
9
Location
Massachusetts
I have been trying to get a walkout basement done in Massachusetts and been hitting a real wall with my local board of health. Everything is to code on my plans and this is what they keep giving me as a response. Please notice the use of word “potential”. To me this seems like a cop not letting you drive because you might get a speeding ticket in the future...


  • As Ms. BoH explained, adding a bathroom would add potential bedrooms, and your dwelling is already at the maximum wastewater capacity.
 
I'd agree. Unless the plans show that you are adding a sleeping room, their rejection is baseless and should be overturned.

That said, are you adding bedrooms and labeling them something else to get around the health dept.? I presume this is an issue with size of the existing septic system?
 
Call and politely explain that a sleeping room is not being added. Ask them kindly for a code/legal citation. If they do not concede, ask politely for their supervisor and explain your case again.

If you can refrain from angering anyone, you should prevail.
 
Mrgomez7 said:
I have been trying to get a walkout basement done in Massachusetts and been hitting a real wall with my local board of health. Everything is to code on my plans and this is what they keep giving me as a response. Please notice the use of word “potential”. To me this seems like a cop not letting you drive because you might get a speeding ticket in the future...


  • As Ms. BoH explained, adding a bathroom would add potential bedrooms, and your dwelling is already at the maximum wastewater capacity.
Click to expand...


Ok, my thought

Are you adding a bathroom???

If so, are they saying and not in plain English,,, You cannot at a bathroom, because you have reached your poop limit???
 
cda said:
Ok, my thought

Are you adding a bathroom???

If so, are they saying and not in plain English,,, You cannot at a bathroom, because you have reached your poop limit???
Click to expand...
CDA, health departments will typically size septic systems based upon the number of bedrooms. It is a more accurate representation of how many people will reside in a property than the number of bathrooms.

It is still a very poor calculation method, but that is what they typically use, so it is what folks have to deal with.

In Mass., see 310 CMR 15.000: Title 5 of the State Environmental Code, which has the below section. Note that for a SFD, it is per bedroom.

1606247474268.png
 
classicT said:
Call and politely explain that a sleeping room is not being added. Ask them kindly for a code/legal citation. If they do not concede, ask politely for their supervisor and explain your case again.

If you can refrain from angering anyone, you should prevail.
Click to expand...
I have asked for the code violation a few times now. They just don’t ever email me back. Only going thru email due to Covid. It’s a small office, this is coming from one of the BOH members. I’m not sure they have a supervisor
 
classicT said:
CDA, health departments will typically size septic systems based upon the number of bedrooms. It is a more accurate representation of how many people will reside in a property than the number of bathrooms.

It is still a very poor calculation method, but that is what they typically use, so it is what folks have to deal with.

In Mass., see 310 CMR 15.000: Title 5 of the State Environmental Code, which has the below section. Note that for a SFD, it is per bedroom.

View attachment 7183
Click to expand...
I’m not sure I understand. Could you please explain?
 
Mrgomez7 said:
I’m not sure I understand. Could you please explain?
Click to expand...
If you look at the image above that I posted, it comes out of 310 CMR 15.000: Title 5 of the State Environmental Code, which is the law regarding septic tank sizing. This is what the person reviewing your plans at the health department should be citing as a reference.

Your system shall be sized for the greater of 330 gal/day or (110 gal) X (# of bedrooms) /day.

As you are not adding a bedroom, they should not be reviewing the size of the existing system.
 
classicT said:
If you look at the image above that I posted, it comes out of 310 CMR 15.000: Title 5 of the State Environmental Code, which is the law regarding septic tank sizing. This is what the person reviewing your plans at the health department should be citing as a reference.

Your system shall be sized for the greater of 330 gal/day or (110 gal) X (# of bedrooms) /day.

As you are not adding a bedroom, they should not be reviewing the size of the existing system.
Click to expand...
Okay I understand. Also it’s a brand new system that was installed in 2019 sized for a 7 bedroom. Shouldn’t have any issues.
 
Mrgomez7 said:
I have asked for the code violation a few times now. They just don’t ever email me back. Only going thru email due to Covid. It’s a small office, this is coming from one of the BOH members. I’m not sure they have a supervisor
Click to expand...



Every one has a boss,

I would call and not email. just keep going through the city directory till you find intelligent life, even if you have to call the mayor or whoever runs the city.

Bother them and you should get some action.
 
cda said:
How many bedrooms are existing in the house?
Click to expand...
7 and I’m not asking to add one. They are saying I can’t have a bathroom in the basement because if I ever even sell the house the new owners would possibly make my other rooms (gym, office) into a bedroom. Guilty before even thinking of the crime...
 
Mrgomez7 said:
7 and I’m not asking to add one. They are saying I can’t have a bathroom in the basement because if I ever even sell the house the new owners would possibly make my other rooms (gym, office) into a bedroom. Guilty before even thinking of the crime...
Click to expand...
Stick to being polite and refer to the code section that I gave you. If they do not agree, ask for supervisor. Cannot force you until a room is labeled as a bedroom.
 
Mrgomez7 said:
They are saying I can’t have a bathroom in the basement because if I ever even sell the house the new owners would possibly make my other rooms (gym, office) into a bedroom.
Click to expand...
Not without adding egress windows and smoke detectors in those (sleeping) rooms.
You could just as easily reduce the number of bedrooms by making one an office and another a craft room.
See how their logic falls apart when trying to have a crystal ball about what "might" be done in the future by a new owner
 
Be thankful this is not a change in occupancy from a pre 1920 SF to an ADA compliant commercial, They will ask for the sun, moon and a few stars.
 
ADAguy said:
Be thankful this is not a change in occupancy from a pre 1920 SF to an ADA compliant commercial, They will ask for the sun, moon and a few stars.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? An "ADA compliant commercial" septic tank? So confused...
 
Is this preventing them to issue a permit? There probably an appeals process. If you know a lawyer have them send a letter, that should get their attention.
 
This is easily fixed by the municipality by placing stipulations on the Certificate of Occupancy. This is how I handled situations like yours in the past.
 
The assumption are correct, the septic system is sized the pert test calculation for leach field size based on the number of bed rooms the house at 110GPD.

The BOH in MA. can be an elected board there for answers to the voters at election time or appointed by an authority and answers to them to a point, however is bound by the state septic code. If you are aggrieved by the BOH employee/agent decision you can appeal to that to the authority

I my town, and I have never questioned it, a 9 room house is considered a 4 bedroom house and a 10 room house is considered a 5 bedroom house regardless of what you label the rooms.

For the BOH a bedroom must have the expectation of privacy, bathroom and laundry rooms do not count as a room in the total room count.

Suggestion ask the BOH if you put a deed restriction on the property that it will only be considered a 3 bed rooms hose would that ease their minds?

What the problem the BOH is heading off is the under design of a septic system for the number of bedroom and the the sale of the house at a late date with the relator misrepresenting the number of bedrooms in the house and the subsequent failure of the septic system, coming back to the BOH and why did you let them do it. It happen all the time, been there, done that had to straiten the mess out more than once. .
 
Same in PA, septic systems are designed based on the number of bedrooms. This is not the issue here, the issue is poor enforcement IF the story being told here is accurate. You can't future proof your code decisions.
 
Similar situation here: septic is sized on the number of dwelling units and the number of bedrooms in the dwelling unit(s). Have a many bathrooms as you want.

Other people must be way better at telling the future than I am if that is their basis for this requirement. Adding bedrooms is either a reno or a change of use and would trigger a plan review. We would catch the septic issue at that time.
 
Is there a shower in the basement bathroom? If so that is probably why they are flagging it. Remove the shower.

My health dept says that if the room his readily accessible to a bathroom w/a shower it "may" possibly be considered a sleeping room.
 
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