Bonding Jumper

[ICE]

We require a bonding jumper between cold and hot water pipes at the water heater on all service panel up-grades. They missed it here. The lack of soot told me that it was recent. The contractor said that he started to install the jumper but held off to see if I would require it. What a clown. He knocks the vent apart and thinks nothing of it.

They missed it here too.

Likewise.

 

[jar546]

Are there any homes in your area that shouldn't be condemned? :devil

 

[RJJ]

Most likely not!

 

[jwelectric]

This is being discussed on another forum. Is there a requirement to bond from one pipe to another?

If we are using the NEC the requirement to bond a metal water pipe is found in 250.104(A).

There is no verbiage that allows a metal water pipe to be bonded to another water pipe. This section is very clear on the places this bonded metal water pipe must be bonded to and another metal water pipe is not listed.

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.

(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the

1-service equipment enclosure,

2-the grounded conductor at the service,

3-the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size,

4-or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

This bonding from one pipe to another is not outlined above. It gives us 4 places that the pipe is to be bonded to and hot and cold is not mentioned.

Is this a local concrete jungle requirement and is so based on what?

 

[BSSTG]

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the

1-service equipment enclosure,

Greetings,

metal water piping systems (s)

I would venture to say that the hot water pipe and the cold water pipe are different systems. You can't rely on them being bonded through plumbing fixtues. You never know where dielectric fittings will be used supposedly. Hence the requirement in many jurisdictions for the bonding of the hot and cold at the water heater. In reality I think it's a bit overboard IMHO.

On another note, the only time I ever called the gas company to disconnect gas service was when I saw exactly what's in the pic above.

BSSTG

 

[jwelectric]

Greetings,--metal water piping systems (s) --I would venture to say that the hot water pipe and the cold water pipe are different systems.

This seems to the argument of those who say that the bond is required.If they are two separate systems wouldn’t the requirement in 250.104(A)(1) require that each part of the system be bonded to one of the four places outlined instead of one to the other?

You can't rely on them being bonded through plumbing fixtues. You never know where dielectric fittings will be used supposedly. Hence the requirement in many jurisdictions for the bonding of the hot and cold at the water heater. So I have bonded across the water heater but the plumber has used one of these to install the ice maker. How does that bonding help this issue?

In reality I think it's a bit overboard IMHO.

I think it violates the very code section that they are trying to enforce

 

[BSSTG]

I am inclined to agree. However, our jurisdicton, and many others hereabout, the IBC is the administrative tool used to apply the NEC.

It reads thusly.

SECTION 104 DUTIES AND POWERS OF BUILDING OFFICIAL

104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and equipment. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.

It would be left up to the building official or AHJ to make the final determination for acceptance of any alternative method.

BSSTG

 

[jwelectric]

Does this mean that the code official is charged with the testing of such an installation where many people that have done nothing but electrical all their lives says something entirely different?

Maybe it is time for ICC to rethink the burden they have laid on the backs of code officials that use their (flawed) codes.

 

[gfretwell]

Bonding Jumper. A reliable conductor to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected.

 

[gfretwell]

2008 handbook commentary 250.104(A)

Where it cannot be reasonably concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical connections, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. Isolated sections of metal piping (such as may be used for plumbing fixture connection) that are connected to an overall nonmetallic water piping system are not subject to the requirements of 250.104(A). The isolated sections are not a metal water piping system. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.

 

[jwelectric]

2008 handbook commentary 250.104(A)

The commentary is the same in 2011. Notice that Mark nor Jeffrey made a reference to the bonding of hot to cold.

If the two are to be called separate systems then the bonding jumper must land at one of the four points outlined in 250.104(A)(1) not to another water pipe.

Thank you for pointing this out.

 

[gfretwell]

The jumper around a water heater is "hot to cold". It would be the jumpers around water softeners or other plastic fittings that are not specifically spelled out.

 

[steveray]

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.

(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E).

Notice they left out © which is where they talk about continuous......maybe that makes it ok?

 

[jwelectric]

The jumper around a water heater is "hot to cold". It would be the jumpers around water softeners or other plastic fittings that are not specifically spelled out.

In Part III of 250 the jumpers around removable devices such as water meters is covered, see 250.53(D)(1)Water heaters are not mentioned in any code section. The bonding of hot to cold at a water heater is a violation of 250.104(A)(1) in anybody's book. This sections gives the only four places that a bonding jumper can land and from one pipe to another is not mentioned.

 

[gfretwell]

Then the question becomes, where do you bond the hot to the cold as the handbook describes.

We seem to spend a lot more time parsing omissions and oversights in the code than trying to establish what it is trying to accomplish. I guess that is why the ROP looks like the Manhattan phone book every 3 years.

If anything I would say the code might not be clear enough in requiring bonding around the water heater but I don't think it is a violation.

 

[jwelectric]

Then the question becomes, where do you bond the hot to the cold as the handbook describes.We seem to spend a lot more time parsing omissions and oversights in the code than trying to establish what it is trying to accomplish. I guess that is why the ROP looks like the Manhattan phone book every 3 years.

If anything I would say the code might not be clear enough in requiring bonding around the water heater but I don't think it is a violation.

Read Part V where we find 250.103(A)(1) and see if you can find the requirement to bond the hot and cold in the verbiage of the code. I can't find it anywhere. Remember the commentary of Mark Early is not enforceable.

 

[jwelectric]

When we are given language such as "SHALL" it is mandatory and not something we can say we think this is what they are wanting. I find the word "SHALL" in 250.104(A)(1) which means that the bonding jumper shall land on one of those four places not somewhere I think someone means for it to land.

 

[jwelectric]

No where in the handbook does it say to bond hot to cold either

 

[gfretwell]

I cited where the handbook says it is "required".

 

[jwelectric]

I cited where the handbook says it is "required".

What you cited was the commentary by Mark Early not what is adopted into law. I do not know of a jurisdiction that adopts the handbook, this must be an Estero Florida thing. What you cited did not say to bond across a water heater this is something that your imagination has developed on its own.

The only thing that can be enforced is what had been adopted in your jurisdiction and FL has adopted the NEC with amendments. There is no requirement to be found to bond across a water heater.

There is no verbiage to be found that requires a metal water pipe to be electrically continuous. Plumbing is mandated by another code other than the NEC. There is no code that says a metal water piping system cannot have non-metallic parts installed.

Spend a little time today reading the codes regarding the bonding of metal water pipes. It can be found in 250.104 of the 2011 NEC.

 

[steveray]

Excuse my ignorance as you obviously know way more about electrical than I do....but....every piece of steel in a building does not need it's own jumper back to the service, Correct? The frame is considered bonded by the bolting or welding.....The rebar in the footing is bonded by "the usual steel tie wires" (until they use coated ones, but that is another story in another post someday)....All of these elements must be considered "reliable conductors" per the definition that GF posted above......Correct? The connection between hot and cold is just that.....the jumper is the wire that goes back to the service....But hey!.....All the pipe is going to plastic soon anyway.....then this is all moot!

In Part III of 250 the jumpers around removable devices such as water meters is covered, see 250.53(D)(1)Water heaters are not mentioned in any code section. The bonding of hot to cold at a water heater is a violation of 250.104(A)(1) in anybody's book. This sections gives the only four places that a bonding jumper can land and from one pipe to another is not mentioned.

 

[gfretwell]

JW, you may have picked the wrong state to talk about bonding. Florida even requires bonding steel studs. We bond every chance we get.

 

[jwelectric]

...All of these elements must be considered "reliable conductors" per the definition that GF posted above......Correct? The connection between hot and cold is just that.....the jumper is the wire that goes back to the service....But hey!.....All the pipe is going to plastic soon anyway.....then this is all moot!

No none of this is a conductor. None of this is required to be electrically continuous. The conductor between a hot and cold is a bonding jumper that is incorrectly installed

 

[gfretwell]

Back up a few notes and read the definition of bonding jumper. I see no place in the code that says you can't bond any metal to any other metal. You have only pointed out that it is not specifically required