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brick paver landings

rktect 1

rktect 1

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,112
Location
Illinois
Over the past few years I have seen many permits for brick paver landings outside front and rear exterior doors. I've had brick paver landings designed and built for additions, new homes, remodels, etc. And every once in a while, maybe every two weeks, I am told that all the contractor wants to do is put down X inches of gravel and sand and set the pavers on top. We have a frost depth of 42" here. So I usually tell them they need concrete piers and a slab with rebar attaching the landing to the foundation or wing walls and a slab or a full foundation and a slab. Then they can adhere the pavers to the slab. Which usually works and the contractor provides the details and voila, they get a permit. But every once in a while I get a contractor who says he has never ever done this, nor does any other city require this. He will show me the details for the paver company we will call umilock and sure enough, no details exist for a foundation for front or rear landings. I've even contacted this company and others and they do not have a detail. They act fairly confused by my inquiry and usuallt tell me that they will look into it. So, do any other villages accept the no frost protected gravel and sandd base for front or rear door landings? What do you do or accept? Does your village have a standard or detail?
 
We don't require footing or foundation for a step/stoop. It's a good idea for new construction since the ground settles significantly in the first 5-10 years, but not a requirement.

On an existing home, 4-6" compacted base - add pavers - done.

mj
 
Like mjesse & fatboy, no footing/foundation here. I did amend the code so that the frost depth is 18" (more restrictive).

Sue
 
Soooooooo.., what if there is a big piece of flat stone set outside the door?

Would you accept that as an approved landing?

.
 
globe trekker said:
Soooooooo.., what if there is a big piece of flat stone set outside the door?Would you accept that as an approved landing?.
Click to expand...
Probably, if it is stable and the right dimensions
 
globe trekker said:
Soooooooo.., what if there is a big piece of flat stone set outside the door?Would you accept that as an approved landing?

.
Click to expand...
We don't. Unless it is on bedrock I suppose.
 
Not required by code. It is not supporting a pier building or structure or just pick one of the exceptions below

R403.1.4 Minimum depth.

All exterior footings shall be placed at least 12 inches (305 mm) below the undisturbed ground surface. Where applicable, the depth of footings shall also conform to Sections R403.1.4.1 through R403.1.4.2.

R403.1.4.1 Frost protection.

Except where otherwise protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected from frost by one or more of the following methods:

1. Extended below the frost line specified in Table R301.2.(1);

2. Constructing in accordance with Section R403.3;

3. Constructing in accordance with ASCE 32; or

4. Erected on solid rock.

Exceptions:

1. Protection of freestanding accessory structures with an area of 600 square feet (56 m2) or less, of light-frame construction, with an eave height of 10 feet (3048 mm) or less shall not be required.

2. Protection of freestanding accessory structures with an area of 400 square feet (37 m2) or less, of other than light-frame construction, with an eave height of 10 feet (3048 mm) or less shall not be required.

3. Decks not supported by a dwelling need not be provided with footings that extend below the frost line.



Footings shall not bear on frozen soil unless the frozen condition is permanent.
 
I think you have to start in section 3 Means of Egress

311.1 General - Stairways, ramps, exterior balconies, hallways and doors shall comply with this code.

311.2 Construction.

311.2.1 Attachment - Required exterior egress balconies, exterior exit stairways and similar means of egress components shall be positively anchored to the primary structure to resist both vertical and lateral forces.

So because of this section, some method is required to keep the exterior landing or stairs/steps (required egress component) from shifting.

311.4.3 Landings and doors - There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door.

We also removed Exception #1 from section 311.4.3 landings and doors.
 
While not attached to the primary structure, I could argue that Globe Trekkers's "big flat stone" is neither a balcony, stairway, or similar component, and will adequately resist both vertical and lateral forces by nature of its weight and contact with the ground.

:devil

mj
 
mjesse (and others),

That was our position as well! They decided on a big, flat piece of slate.

In this one particular house, the owner spent waaaaay overboard and

then mysteriously "ran out of money" on this one landing. Go figure! :eek:

.
 
311.2 Construction.311.2.1 Attachment - Required exterior egress balconies, exterior exit stairways and similar means of egress components shall be positively anchored to the primary structure to resist both vertical and lateral forces.

So because of this section, some method is required to keep the exterior landing or stairs/steps (required egress component) from shifting.
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Think about what vertical loads and lateral loads resist.

Frost protection is to resist uplift.
 
rktect 1 said:
Over the past few years I have seen many permits for brick paver landings outside front and rear exterior doors. I've had brick paver landings designed and built for additions, new homes, remodels, etc. And every once in a while, maybe every two weeks, I am told that all the contractor wants to do is put down X inches of gravel and sand and set the pavers on top. We have a frost depth of 42" here. So I usually tell them they need concrete piers and a slab with rebar attaching the landing to the foundation or wing walls and a slab or a full foundation and a slab. Then they can adhere the pavers to the slab. Which usually works and the contractor provides the details and voila, they get a permit. But every once in a while I get a contractor who says he has never ever done this, nor does any other city require this. He will show me the details for the paver company we will call umilock and sure enough, no details exist for a foundation for front or rear landings. I've even contacted this company and others and they do not have a detail. They act fairly confused by my inquiry and usuallt tell me that they will look into it. So, do any other villages accept the no frost protected gravel and sandd base for front or rear door landings? What do you do or accept? Does your village have a standard or detail?
Click to expand...
That's totally f*****g insane.
 
rktect 1 said:
Over the past few years I have seen many permits for brick paver landings outside front and rear exterior doors. I've had brick paver landings designed and built for additions, new homes, remodels, etc. And every once in a while, maybe every two weeks, I am told that all the contractor wants to do is put down X inches of gravel and sand and set the pavers on top. We have a frost depth of 42" here. So I usually tell them they need concrete piers and a slab with rebar attaching the landing to the foundation or wing walls and a slab or a full foundation and a slab. Then they can adhere the pavers to the slab. Which usually works and the contractor provides the details and voila, they get a permit. But every once in a while I get a contractor who says he has never ever done this, nor does any other city require this. He will show me the details for the paver company we will call umilock and sure enough, no details exist for a foundation for front or rear landings. I've even contacted this company and others and they do not have a detail. They act fairly confused by my inquiry and usuallt tell me that they will look into it. So, do any other villages accept the no frost protected gravel and sandd base for front or rear door landings? What do you do or accept? Does your village have a standard or detail?
Click to expand...
Wow. I go with the manufacturer's installation instructions, which shows none of that crap.

They are just pavers. Do you make them remove all topsoil so that a weed NEVER, EVER sprouts up anywhere because that weed could have a significant root system and possibly alter the paver causing a spectacular tripping hazard.
 
rktect 1 said:
It does not say loads, it says forces.
Click to expand...
Vertical is a downward force (gravity)

Lateral is a sideward force such as seismic or wind

Uplift would be wind and frost heave

An egress balcony or exterior stair are not a similar egress componant to a landing constructed of brick pavers or a concrete slab.

How do you hande an egress door that exits onto a asphalt paved parking area? You can't have that attached to the structure.
 
How do you hande an egress door that exits onto a asphalt paved parking area?You can't have that attached to the structure.
Click to expand...
From the 2006 IBC, 1003.4 Floor surface.Walking surfaces of the means of egress shall have a slip-resistant surface and be securely attached.

All 3 components of the MOE have to be maintained to provide access to the designated Public

Way, ..wherever that is designated to be.

We seem to have strayed off of the Residential application / OP.

.
 
mtlogcabin said:
How do you hande an egress door that exits onto a asphalt paved parking area? You can't have that attached to the structure.
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I handle it by not allowing an egress door to empty blindly into a parking lot, firelane, driveway or road. I know that sounds crazy not allowing a person to open a door outward into traffic like that but....
 
Our frost depth is 18 inches but usually pavers are put on a few inches of sand bed for leveling-- residential and commercial.
 
It might work for residences that don't have to be accessible, where you can have a step at the door. It wouldn't work where accessibility is required, because frost heave could lift the pavers above the floor line.
 
We allow just about any firm surface at the bottom of stairs and below exterior doors. Perhaps what you can accept is relevant to the local environment.

This may not be an answer to your current situation but the 2009 IRC R311.5.1 makes use of free standing decks from chapter 4 to be included “as a similar means of egress component”. I think this would support patios and grade surfaces as well.

R311.5.1 Attachment.

Exterior landings, decks, balconies, stairs and similar facilities shall be positively anchored to the primary structure to resist both vertical and lateral forces or shall be designed to be self-supporting. Attachment shall not be accomplished by use of toenails or nails subject to withdrawal.

Francis

 
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