Buildings separated vertically by firewall - accessibility route

[arcadia]

Question about a multi-storeyed hotel (10-15 storeys+) in Tennessee. The lobby has a restaurant and a patio. The patio has a terrace to which the architect is claiming an exception to ADA accessible route:
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We would be using the exception of a Mezzanine/Story under the 3,000 SF
206.2.3.1
1. In private buildings or facilities that are less than three stories or that have less than 3000 SF per story, an accessible route shall not be required to connect to stories provided that the building or facility is not a shopping center, a shopping mall, the professional office of a health care provider, a terminal, depot or other station used for specified public transportation, an airport passenger terminal, or another type of facility as determined by the Attorney General.

Key concept being that the concrete podium above allows us to classify this as a separate building due to the 3hr separation between the lobby and the building above.
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My question is, does the ADA allow #of storeys to be determined by building separation according to building code (i.e. treating a single building as multiple buildings with firewall separations)?
PS: There is a thread from over 12 years ago, would appreciate any updated info/interpretation.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Buildings and Facilitys?

This is the definition in the IBC that you would use for Chapter 11 for accessibility. I don't know what the definition of facility is in the ADA
[A] FACILITY. All or any portion of buildings, structures,
site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular
routes located on a site.

 

[Jay Smith]

Fire walls and a horizontal building separation causes portions of a building to be considered independently with regard to only the issues listed in Chapter 5 - allowable area, height, number of stories, construction type.

 

[arcadia]

Thank you for your input. I too think that the exception cannot be taken.

 

[Genduct]

I think your key question:

My question is, does the ADA allow #of storeys to be determined by building separation according to building code (i.e. treating a single building as multiple buildings with firewall separations)?

Is a logical and wonder why you haven't had a preliminary conversation with the Bldg Code Official to get their opinion

 

[arcadia]

I think your key question:

My question is, does the ADA allow #of storeys to be determined by building separation according to building code (i.e. treating a single building as multiple buildings with firewall separations)?

Is a logical and wonder why you haven't had a preliminary conversation with the Bldg Code Official to get their opinion

Indeed I'm going to suggest that to the owner, who asked me in an informal capacity. However, even if the code official might allow it, in grey areas such as this, would the owner be protected from a user lawsuit - doesn't accessibility code governed by the ADA overrule AHJ ?

 

[Genduct]

Indeed I'm going to suggest that to the owner, who asked me in an informal capacity. However, even if the code official might allow it, in grey areas such as this, would the owner be protected from a user lawsuit - doesn't accessibility code governed by the ADA overrule AHJ ?

This is an EXISTING Building, Isn't it?
Seems that your Bldg Code Official's opinion about the status of this ALTERATION will have a large impact on the Other Codes and Requirements

 

[arcadia]

This is an EXISTING Building, Isn't it?
Seems that your Bldg Code Official's opinion about the status of this ALTERATION will have a large impact on the Other Codes and Requirements

No, it's a new building.

 

[Genduct]

No, it's a new building.

OH! So now the Plan Reviewer has to sort out the potential conflict between Our Code Standard that says we are dealing with separate BUILDINGS, vs What the Fed sees.
This depends on the personality of the Department.
I think, if we believe the Code sees this as 2 separate Structures, OUR approach needs to be asserted. If not, the Fed rules would cause us a lot more second-guessing and complicate our job as Code Officials reviewing these projects.

 

[redeyedfly]

doesn't accessibility code governed by the ADA overrule AHJ ?

There's always an AHJ. For the ADA it's the Justice Department.

 

[arcadia]

There's always an AHJ. For the ADA it's the Justice Department.

Indeed, I meant the local AHJ (who we typically have in mind when referring to the term!)

 

[Genduct]

OH! So now the Plan Reviewer has to sort out the potential conflict between Our Code Standard that says we are dealing with separate BUILDINGS, vs What the Fed sees.
This depends on the personality of the Department.
I think, if we believe the Code sees this as 2 separate Structures, OUR approach needs to be asserted. If not, the Fed rules would cause us a lot more second-guessing and complicate our job as Code Officials reviewing these projects.

 

[Genduct]

Indeed, I meant the local AHJ (who we typically have in mind when referring to the term!)

I believe your question is, if this Bldg Code Compliant podium, does in fact create 2 separate buildings, then do the Mezzanine rules apply?

I believe the answer is YES.

If the Fed wants to assert that they have the priority and overrule State Building Code interpretation, that will make for some interesting States' Rights questions that I don't think they would like to raise. I think that OSHA and these other areas of Fed Interest need the goodwill and cooperation of the Local Bldg Departments

Is the Fed ready to "take over" the responsibility of our State Bldg Code Admin?

I Didn't think I would be going down this rabbit hole when I first responded to the post, but here we are.

When you speak with the BCO and your demeanor communicates your ambivalence, then they will adopt your POV that the ADA trumps the usual way you address the customary Mezzanine Design requirements.

Next time you build townhouses, shouldn't you consider the R-2 multi-family rules to determine ADA compliance as well? Perhaps that is an extreme example, but where does it stop?

I think all of us want to accommodate people with disabilities. But there is a limit to the economic cost vs benefit/ use that needs to be considered
The rules are supposed to consider this as well

 

[Paul Sweet]

IBC 1104.4 exception 1 says "An accessible route is not required to stories, mezzanines and occupied roofs that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet . . ." This has been interpreted as 3000 SF per building, and not per story.

ADASAD 106.5 defines Building as "Any structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or occupancy" and Facility as "All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements, and pedestrian routes or vehicular ways located on a site." I can't find any mention of fire walls creating separate buildings or facilities. This is what DOJ will go by if somebody sues because they can't get to the terrace.

 

[Genduct]

IBC 1104.4 exception 1 says "An accessible route is not required to stories, mezzanines and occupied roofs that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet . . ." This has been interpreted as 3000 SF per building, and not per story.

ADASAD 106.5 defines Building as "Any structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or occupancy" and Facility as "All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements, and pedestrian routes or vehicular ways located on a site." I can't find any mention of fire walls creating separate buildings or facilities. This is what DOJ will go by if somebody sues because they can't get to the terrace.

Paul, I understand the idea of the fire wall creating Separate Buildings sounds like a stretch, because it is being constructed at the same time.
But, may I suggest that a series of townhouses is also built at the same time and no one would consider them anything other than Single Family Homes.

Could you agree with that point of view with the 3,000 SF being evaluated with only the lower Building and Not the Whole Structure?

 

[Paul Sweet]

HUD's Fair Housing Act Amendments (Federal Register March 6, 1991) considers a group of more than 4 townhouses with firewalls between each unit to be one building.

That could give DOJ a precedent to ignore firewalls in non-residential buildings.

 

[Jean Tessmer-HI]

The Americans with disabilities act and the fair housing act are both enforced by one federal entity. The US Department of Justice.
Mezzanines are a conundrum I have looked at. Best to call the DOJ TA line to get the correct answer, or the architect will need to do a ton of research and ask DOJ for a waiver which will probably not happen.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

Question about a multi-storeyed hotel (10-15 storeys+) in Tennessee. The lobby has a restaurant and a patio. The patio has a terrace to which the architect is claiming an exception to ADA accessible route:

a floor plan would really help in this discussion, when I see the words 'Lobby' Patio' and 'terrace' I imagine all these spaces are at ground level.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

2018 IBC
1104.2 Within a site. At least one accessible route shall connect
accessible buildings, accessible facilities, accessible elements
and accessible spaces that are on the same site.
Exceptions:
1. An accessible route is not required between accessible
buildings, accessible facilities, accessible elements
and accessible spaces that have, as the only
means of access between them, a vehicular way not
providing for pedestrian access.
2. An accessible route to recreational facilities shall
only be required to the extent specified in Section
1110.