Calculations only from PE?

[jar546]

When is it acceptable to accept structural engineering calculations from an architect who is not a PE?

Where is the line drawn (may be State specific) as to where the job of the architect legally ends and the PE begins?

 

[Frank]

A fuzzy wuzzy line in Virginia where an Archtect can do incidental engineering work and an Engineer can do incidental architectural work as long as they feel they are competent to do so.

From code of VA

"§ 54.1-401. Exemptions.

The following shall be exempted from the provisions of this chapter:

1. Practice of professional engineering and land surveying by a licensed architect when such

practice is incidental to what may be properly considered an architectural undertaking.

2. Practice of architecture and land surveying by a licensed professional engineer when such

practice is incidental to an engineering project."

 

[brudgers]

When is it acceptable to accept structural engineering calculations from an architect who is not a PE? Where is the line drawn (may be State specific) as to where the job of the architect legally ends and the PE begins?

Entirely a question of state law. As are calculations by a homeowner or other unlicensed individual.

As an aside, if you are asking for calculations, what should matter is if they are code compliant, not the source.

If you cannot determine the code compliance of the calculations, you have no business asking for make-work.

 

[jar546]

We have the calculations for our files and usually (but not always) have the municipal engineer review.

 

[rktect 1]

I don't want to sit here agreeing with brudgers all day.

But, in the state I am in architects are allowed to perform structural engineering calculations. Of course they need to prove them up just as a PE would have to. To me there is a bit of a blurry line because not all architects are the same so hopefully they have the background because you really wont be able to tell due to the fact, both the PE and the architect will probably be using the same or similar software these days.

Eventually, we may not need either a PE or an architect with these software programs. I was recently in a Simpson class filled with engineers and they were running over handcalcs of some anchor connections. While I am certain everybody was following along, when the instructor started up the software program they created, you could see how much simpler the process was. Program asks for the input and spits out about 7 different forumulas and calcs as well as the solution. DONE. Took maybe 10 minutes total. The hand calcs would take at least 30-45 minutes.

 

[Mark K]

The software is a tool. You need somebody who knows how it should work and can intellegently review the results.

Licensing architects and engineers is about personal responsibility

 

[rktect 1]

The software is a tool. You need somebody who knows how it should work and can intellegently review the results.Licensing architects and engineers is about personal responsibility

The software IS a tool. But I can tell you there is a big difference between knowing how to input something correctly vs not and how to actually perform the calcs vs not. And the software, if you know the inputs and how to generate them, does not require that person to understand the calcs. Those just get spit back out at you. Then you sign and seal them. JMHO.

I'm not trying to marginalize engineers or architects. But the fact remains, you enter the data correctly, per the software perameters, and the correct answer will be given to you. At this point it does not really matter if you understand the provided calcs or not as long as you gat the "it passes". On top of which these companies are creating these software programs and they don't care who gets them. Could be you, me or bob the framer. Then bob submits the spit out calcs for a beam, footing, header, bolt group, etc and the plan reviewer needs to catch the fact he isn't qualified, per state licensing laws if there are any.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Agree and the span charts in the code books are just tools. Get the wrong chart (input) you will get the wrong results (output)

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Had plan for a residential addition submitted today with no structural information. Asked the contractor to provide structural information (i.e., headers, beams, footings, etc.). He stated he didn't know those yet, and finished his statement with "I will probably just use a W10." Rather than asking him questions I knew he wouldn't know, or would just be guessing at, I informed him that before he remove 26' of load bearing (roof) wall on a cantilever and replace it with W10xWhatever, he should go take a real hard look at what he was doing with his point loads/load paths for his clear spans and consider getting some engineering.

I am not sure how I would respond if he brings back a software solution.

 

[gbhammer]

If it were correct we would accept it.

 

[Mark K]

rktect1

IMHO a design professional who uses a program when he does not understand what the program does should not be using it.

Similarly contractors or building inspectors who do not have the same understanding should not be using the programs.

It should be remembered that the state does not license computer programs.

 

[DRP]

Would it not then follow that a contractor or homeowner who can do the calculation by hand and come up with the same result as the program should be allowed to submit a design? The math is not licensed and is just a tool used to demonstrate compliance with an intent.

 

[Mark K]

Who is allowed to submit a design is governed by state laws related to the practice of engineering and architecture.

We are mixing up several issues.

-----Whether the individual is responsibly using the tools.

-----Whether a design professional is practicing within his area of competency.

-----Who can prepare the design and represent the Owner to the building department.

-----Whether the project complies with the code.

These are separate issues.

If the individual who prepared the design had the legal right to prepare the design then the building department will evaluate whether the design complies with the code. The building official is normally not concerned with whether the designer responsibly used the program. The building department’s emphasis is on whether the design complies with the code.

If the building official or plan checkers used software during the performance of their duties they should be concerned whether they were responsibly using the software.