• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

California - existing strip malls

JPohling

Sawhorse
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
1,606
Location
San Diego
So we have been encountering these two issues on a more frequent basis and I am trying to understand our clients responsibility with regard to disabled accessibility.

Lets assume for sake of this discussion that our scope of work is a retail client in the 2-3K SF range and the construction valuation exceeds the threshold.

Issue #1: Typical situation would be a strip shopping mall built in the 70's with a zero curb across the entire frontage of the small shops +/- 200' and another 300' across the adjacent big box store. The zero curb is adjacent to the drive aisle with the parking areas across the drive aisle. Our client is in the first retail bay with a frontage of say 40 feet. How much of this existing zero curb would we be responsible for installing detectable warnings across? 40' or the entire 500'? Knowing we can address the issue in various ways like installing an actual vertical curb, planters, bollards with chains and so on, the question still remains..............how far across this existing condition are we responsible to address?

Issue #2: Typical situation would be a strip shopping mall built in the 70's with no defined accessible path from the public way to the various building pads spread around the mall. What is our responsibility to provide a current code complying path of travel from the public way to our suite entrance? Previous access to these buildings was strictly vehicular in nature. Normally these paths if you can find any possible route will traverse hundreds of feet of existing concrete and asphalt that cross drainage swales and slopes in excess of 2%.

What if this shopping center is not flat, but has a vertical elevation change as you enter and drive up to the center, and the slope is in excess of that allowed by a walkway?

What are our responsibilities to provide access? how much access? and code sections to back up your thoughts please. 2013 CBC
 
Issue 1 begs the question as to why hasen't site barriers been previously removed by owner?

Issue 2 POT's "if provided" must be accessible but provision is not required.

Owner must still remove "existing" barriers: parking, signage, door kicks, closer pressure, etc.
 
ADA Guy,

1: have no idea, but now jurisdiction is looking to us to address the issue. I need to be able provide a code backed response to illustrate exactly what our responsibilities are in this matter.

2: That was my interpretation...........No existing POT from PROW was ever provided and there really isnt any way to provide one typically. Why do we constantly receive corrections to provide these POT's if they are not code required? Where is the exception that I can hang my hat on?

I just had my co worker send me the actual plan check correction to see if there were any code sections cited for the requested corrections. There were none! But I did get a big suprise............Mark Handler plan checker!

MH what say you?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JP - I'll wait for the access gurus to weigh in more, but LMAO that Mark is the plan checker! Had to happen eventually I suppose...

Though I am a bit surprised he did not cite code for you to review. What's up with that???
 
mtlogcabin said:
Zero curb is a barrier that restricts access for the disabled that has to be removed?
More likely the lack of truncated domes, though it is odd to label that a 'barrier' I suppose.
 
Issue #1: Our client is in the first retail bay with a frontage of say 40 feet.

Is this a Bank TI?

How much of this existing zero curb would we be responsible for installing detectable warnings across? 40'

2013 CBC 11B-247.1.2.5 Hazardous vehicular areas. if a walk crosses or adjoins a vehicular way, and the walking sUlfaces are not separated by curbs, railings or other elements between the pedestrian areas and vehicular areas, the boundary between the areas shall be defined by a continuous detectable warning complying with Sections 11B-70S.1.1 and 11B-70S.1.2.5.

Issue #2: Typical situation would be a strip shopping mall built in the 70's with no defined accessible path from the public way to the various building pads spread around the mall.

You need to provide a current code complying path of travel from the public way to your suite entrance

11B-206.2.1 Site arrival points. At least one accessible route shall be provided within the site from accessible parking spaces and accessible passenger loading zones; public streets and sidewalks; and public transportation stops to the accessible building or facility entrance they serve. Where more than one route is provided, all routes must be accessible.
 
Mark

For the rest of us out side of CA Help me understand the Fed ADA.

Only 20% of the remodel cost is required to be spent on barrier removal and nowhere does the ADA spell out where those funds are to be spent after the primary function area and the accessible route into the building is compliant.

Is the installation of detectable warnings a barrier removal or simply a requirement that may not fall within the 20% rule if the owner decides to spend the funds elsewhere.
 
If not detectables then a cane detectable alternative is required to remove the barrier to the sight impaired.

20% does not meet the "ongoing" requirement to identify and remove over time and as funds become available, existing barriers.
 
mtlogcabin said:
MarkFor the rest of us out side of CA Help me understand the Fed ADA.

Only 20% of the remodel cost is required to be spent on barrier removal and nowhere does the ADA spell out where those funds are to be spent after the primary function area and the accessible route into the building is compliant.

Is the installation of detectable warnings a barrier removal or simply a requirement that may not fall within the 20% rule if the owner decides to spend the funds elsewhere.
20% in addition to the remodel cost. This is in addition to... Not including the remodel which is all accessible.

Also the case in CA builing code
 
Rick18071 said:
Maybe the CA code (CBC) requires detectable warnings, but the IBC does not.
Correct, detectable warning applications have been cut back from the ADAAG and in the IBC 2012 to transit platform edges bordering and drop-offs.
 
mark handler said:
Issue #1: Our client is in the first retail bay with a frontage of say 40 feet. Is this a Bank TI?Yes, Bank TI

How much of this existing zero curb would we be responsible for installing detectable warnings across? 40' Just across our frontage and not the entire length of zero curb?

2013 CBC 11B-247.1.2.5 Hazardous vehicular areas. if a walk crosses or adjoins a vehicular way, and the walking sUlfaces are not separated by curbs, railings or other elements between the pedestrian areas and vehicular areas, the boundary between the areas shall be defined by a continuous detectable warning complying with Sections 11B-70S.1.1 and 11B-70S.1.2.5.

Issue #2: Typical situation would be a strip shopping mall built in the 70's with no defined accessible path from the public way to the various building pads spread around the mall.

You need to provide a current code complying path of travel from the public way to your suite entrance

11B-206.2.1 Site arrival points. At least one accessible route shall be provided within the site from accessible parking spaces and accessible passenger loading zones; public streets and sidewalks; and public transportation stops to the accessible building or facility entrance they serve. Where more than one route is provided, all routes must be accessible.
For an existing building and site that was not originally required? Is there a maximum dollar amount for these improvements?I didnt do that right............. but you get the idea of where I am going.............
 
Just across our frontage and not the entire length of zero curb---yes

Is there a "minimum dollar" amount for these improvements? ---20 percent "minimum dollar", no max
 
Yes you did! You will be seeing our proposed solutions to the accessibility issues shortly! Thanks for the responses.
 
Don't forget client's ongoing responsibility to remove "other" existing barriers per ADA that he as owner should have previously removed.
 
Top