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CBS Signs verses the City

A

Arcal

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I am looking for opinions on the following. Recently we have had a rash of billboards being cut down. CBS Signs obviously wants to reconstruct them, but that is not the issue. The issue is that they want to put angle iron on each of the remaining signs to make it harder for someone to cut them down. They contacted me to ask if a permit was needed and I told them no and I thought the issue was closed. Now my director wants me to "include code sections in the memo to back up your opinions." The problem is I don't see where I can specifically pinpoint this to the excemptions in section 105.2 of the CBC. It is not a repair, because nothing at this point has been damaged, but a lawyer could call it an alteration, which is one of the requirement for a permit, Section 105. This is the problem, this could eventially go to the courts. This has become a political hot potato that even involves the California Coastal Commission and a multitude of other individuals and organizations.

View attachment 2035

Schematic for angle iron installs.pdf

Schematic for angle iron installs.pdf
 
Though I hate those billboards, and we, in my city have banned them, there is nothing in the code to prohibit the angle irons.

If the Bilboards are allowed, then they can "rebuild" them.
 
Call it preventative maintenance.

Otherwise, will you be issuing permits for the replacement signs?

If so, can you authorize a blanket permit to install/upgrade all posts to the new spec.?

mj
 
Mark, the question is not if they can rebuild them, because the City would not issue a permit and would stop them if they tried. The question is would a permit be required for "preventative maintenance" as mjesse posted. I say no, but I have to try and document my reasoning.
 
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mark handler said:
It is not mantanace. It is to prevent vandalism. But not defined as mantanace
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I would make the case that methods for prevention of vandalism equals preventative maintenance.
 
It is not mantanace. It is to prevent vandalism. But not defined as mantanace
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I think it could be seen as an alteration in the building code's eyes.

Can you issued a free permit; only charge a dollar? Or will that create a new multitude of problems?
 
If I require a permit, it is going to create a lot of problems. I have to agree with mjesse, that it is preventative maintenance. Preventive maintenance can be described as maintenance of equipment or systems before a problem occurs. The contractor just wants to prevent the destruction of the remaining signs by applying some angle brackets. But, like Mech alluded to in his comment, the word "alter" can almost apply to anything you do if you are making any changes.
 
It is not your job to determine if a building permit is required it is the building officials. It is not a building, or addition, it is no different then installing a bollard at the corner of a building.

104.1 General.

The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.
 
I am the Building Official. I did render an interpretation. mtlogcabin, I agree with you it is nothing more than adding a bollard at the corner of a building. That's my point, it is installed just to protect. What I am trying to do is show some kind of documentation to justify my position to the Community Developement Director, who is my supervisor and the City Attorney.
 
Under 104.1 you made the determination that the work does not fall under the scope of 105.1

Under 107.1 Exception: it is found that the nature of the work applied for is such that review of construction documents is not necessary to obtain compliance with this code.

Therefore no plan review required

Under 110.3 and specifically 110.3.8 the work is such that inspections are not required.

Under CA law are you allowed to charge permit fees for services that will not be rendered?

but a lawyer could call it an alteration
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What lawyer?

Ask your attorney the following questions

1 Who will be harmed if a permit is not issued?

2 Who will complain because a permit is not issued?

3. Who will benefit from the issuance of a permit?

I bet the answers are

1. No one

2. No one

3. The local jurisdiction will generate some revenue.

Not a reason to issue a permit for this scope of work IMHO
 
mtlongcabin - I like your way of thinking.

You ask what lawyer? The three I have talked with that have been hired by CBS Signs.

As a side note, you mentioned CA law and services rendered. When I changed out the windows in my house, in another City, I called City Hall to see if a permit was necessary. She said yes. I asked her at what point do I call for an inspection. She said we don't inspect window change outs. I asked to talk with the City Manager. He changed their policy after our conversation.
 
Section 1.8.4 in the scoping section, exception #2, Changes, alterations, or repairs not affecting structural features, egress, sanitation, safety or accessibility as determined by the enforcing agency.

Its not going to matter in the end anyway. They make metal cutting blades for the Sawzall also. It "might" take a bit longer to cut down but by no means will it deter a determined person from taking down the sign. Mine will eat a peice of mild steel angle iron like a PBJ sandwitch.
 
Arcal said:
The problem is I don't see where I can specifically pinpoint this to the excemptions in section 105.2 of the CBC.
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You are being asked to prove a negative. When asked to provide a code section that exempts this work from a permit, you might suggest that they show you where in the code is the requirement to get a permit for the work.

This is akin to putting rain gutters on a house....or security bars on windows. Extra protection is accomplished without a permit being required.
 
If the signs are there without the permission of the land owner, then the Community Development Director should not be putting you in the middle of this. The answer should be talk to the Director.

If I want to add bollards around my cottage that I built in your backyard without your permission, do I need a permit for those bollards?
 
Thanks to all of you for your input, it really helped me get my thoughts together. Doing this for 25 years and I have never had to justify why I did not require a permit. Always something new.
 
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