Checkout versus service counter - California accessibility

[Codegeek]

I have a project on which an inspector is telling us that our checkout counter must also meet the provisions of a service counter. This is in California and they're saying that we must meet both Section 1110B and 1125B.5. This is the first I've ever run into someone interpreting that both apply as I think it's pretty clear that there are two separate instances and both sections do not apply.

Does anyone have an insight on how to best present an argument for this? Thanks.

 

[globe trekker]

Codegeek,

I looked in the 2010 Edition of the CBC & the 2001 CA. Accessbility Standards and did

not find Section 1110B and 1125B.5.

Can you please indicate which standard you are referring to? Thank you!

.

 

[Codegeek]

Codegeek,I looked in the 2010 Edition of the CBC & the 2001 CA. Accessbility Standards and did

not find Section 1110B and 1125B.5.

Can you please indicate which standard you are referring to? Thank you!

.

1110B.1.3 (checkouts under M requirements) & 1122B.5 (sales and service counters). Sorry about that.

 

[mark handler]

1110B.1.3 (checkouts under M requirements) & 1122B.5 (sales and service counters). Sorry about that.

DEPENDING ON THE OPERATION,THEY CAN BE THE SAME THING.

a service counter is not exclusive to a M it can be a B

What is your concern with meeting both, or the most restrictive of both?

 

[Codegeek]

DEPENDING ON THE OPERATION,THEY CAN BE THE SAME THING.a service counter is not exclusive to a M it can be a B

What is your concern with meeting both, or the most restrictive of both?

How can a checkout counter, which is just that, to go to after one is done shopping, be considered as a service counter? I can see a service counter being a checkout counter, but not the other way around.

 

[mark handler]

How can a checkout counter, which is just that, to go to after one is done shopping, be considered as a service counter? I can see a service counter being a checkout counter, but not the other way around.

depends on the operation of the establishment

 

[Codegeek]

Large box retail - you do your shopping, go to the checkout counter to pay for your items. How is that a service counter when the purpose is to checkout? Does it make a difference if it's a self-checkout?

I understand the 2013 CBC will integrate the 2010 ADA. The 2010 ADA indicates in Section 904.3 the requirements for check-out aisles and in 904.4 for service counters. There is no reference in the 2010 ADA from check-out aisles to service counters or vice versa.

 

[mark handler]

I still do not understand your issue other than verbiage and usage of the service/checkout

The 2013 will use much, not all of the ADA 2010

There will still be much of theCA exclusive sections

 

[Codegeek]

Evidently I'm not making myself clear. I don't know how else to explain it.

We do work all over the country and have this same scenario in every retail client's store and it has never been an issue to have a checkout meet checkout requirements and a service counter meet service counter requirements but never both requirements for one scenario.

 

[globe trekker]

Codegeek,

"Self Check-Outs" would fall under Section 205 - Operable Parts, Section 305

- Clear Floor or Ground Space & Section 904.3 - Check Out Aisles - 2010 Edition

of the ADA SAD.

I too am not being very clear on my wording / typing skills today.

I did not see what standard you are referring to, but rather the individual sections

from that standard. Please forgive me for being rather obtuse this day!

.

 

[Codegeek]

Codegeek,"Self Check-Outs" would fall under Section 205 - Operable Parts, Section 305

- Clear Floor or Ground Space & Section 904.3 - Check Out Aisles - 2010 Edition

of the ADA SAD.

I too am not being very clear on my wording / typing skills today.

I did not see what standard you are referring to, but rather the individual sections

from that standard. Please forgive me for being rather obtuse this day!

.

Agree with your citations from 2010 ADA. I'm dealing with California though and was quoting from the 2010 CBC. Section 1110B.1.3 is on page 476 of Volume 1 of the CBC and Section 1122B.5 is on page 502 of the same book. Those are the sections being cited to us by the inspector.

 

[mark handler]

2010 CBC

1122B.5 Sales and service counters,... portion of the counter ... at least 36 inches in length with a maximum height of 34 inches AFF

1110B.1.3 Check stands. ... minimum clear checkout aisle width of 36 inches with a maximum adjoining counter height not exceeding 38 inches AFF

above the finish floor. The top of the counter lip shall not exceed 40 inches above the finish floor.

2013 CBC

11B-904.4 Sales and Service Counters. Sales counters and service counters shall comply with 11B-904.4.1 or 11B-904.4.2. The accessible portion of the counter top shall extend the same depth as the sales or service counter top.

EXCEPTION: In alterations, when the provision of a counter complying with 11B-904.4 would result in a reduction of the number of existing counters at work stations or a reduction of the number of existing mail boxes, the counter shall be permitted to have a portion which is 24 inches (610 mm) long minimum complying with 11B-904.4.1 provided that the required clear floor or ground space is centered on the accessible length of the counter.

11B-904.4.1 Parallel Approach. A portion of the counter surface that is 36 inches (915 914 mm) long minimum and 36 34 inches (915 864 mm) high maximum above the finish floor shall be provided. A clear floor or ground space complying with 11B-305 shall be positioned for a parallel approach adjacent to the 36 inch (915 914 mm) minimum length of counter.

EXCEPTION: Where the provided counter surface is less than 36 inches (915 914 mm) long, the entire counter surface shall be 36 34 inches (915 864 mm) high maximum above the finish floor.

11B-904.4.2 Forward Approach. A portion of the counter surface that is 30 36 inches (760 914 mm) long minimum and 36 34 inches (915 864 mm) high maximum shall be provided. Knee and toe space complying with 11B-306 shall be provided under the counter. A clear floor or ground space complying with 11B-305 shall be positioned for a forward approach to the counter.

11B-904.3 Check-Out Aisles. Check-out aisles shall comply with 11B-904.3.

11B-904.3.1 Aisle. Aisles shall comply with 11B-403.

11B-904.3.2 Counter. The counter surface height shall be 38 inches (965 mm) maximum above the finish floor or ground. The top of the counter edge protection shall be 2 inches (51 mm) maximum above the top of the counter surface on the aisle side of the check-out counter.

 

[Codegeek]

2010 CBC1122B.5 Sales and service counters,... portion of the counter ... at least 36 inches in length with a maximum height of 34 inches AFF

1110B.1.3 Check stands. ... minimum clear checkout aisle width of 36 inches with a maximum adjoining counter height not exceeding 38 inches AFF

above the finish floor. The top of the counter lip shall not exceed 40 inches above the finish floor.

2013 CBC

11B-904.4 Sales and Service Counters. Sales counters and service counters shall comply with 11B-904.4.1 or 11B-904.4.2. The accessible portion of the counter top shall extend the same depth as the sales or service counter top.

EXCEPTION: In alterations, when the provision of a counter complying with 11B-904.4 would result in a reduction of the number of existing counters at work stations or a reduction of the number of existing mail boxes, the counter shall be permitted to have a portion which is 24 inches (610 mm) long minimum complying with 11B-904.4.1 provided that the required clear floor or ground space is centered on the accessible length of the counter.

11B-904.4.1 Parallel Approach. A portion of the counter surface that is 36 inches (915 914 mm) long minimum and 36 34 inches (915 864 mm) high maximum above the finish floor shall be provided. A clear floor or ground space complying with 11B-305 shall be positioned for a parallel approach adjacent to the 36 inch (915 914 mm) minimum length of counter.

EXCEPTION: Where the provided counter surface is less than 36 inches (915 914 mm) long, the entire counter surface shall be 36 34 inches (915 864 mm) high maximum above the finish floor.

11B-904.4.2 Forward Approach. A portion of the counter surface that is 30 36 inches (760 914 mm) long minimum and 36 34 inches (915 864 mm) high maximum shall be provided. Knee and toe space complying with 11B-306 shall be provided under the counter. A clear floor or ground space complying with 11B-305 shall be positioned for a forward approach to the counter.

11B-904.3 Check-Out Aisles. Check-out aisles shall comply with 11B-904.3.

11B-904.3.1 Aisle. Aisles shall comply with 11B-403.

11B-904.3.2 Counter. The counter surface height shall be 38 inches (965 mm) maximum above the finish floor or ground. The top of the counter edge protection shall be 2 inches (51 mm) maximum above the top of the counter surface on the aisle side of the check-out counter.

That language is verbatim from the 2010 ADA which does not cross reference either which to me implies that they are two separate requirements.

The code official finally agreed with our assessment, that they are two separate requirements.

 

[jar546]

California appears to be more restrictive than ADA and ANSI? Yes that's a question.

Sales and service counters 36" AFF, checkout isle rail up to 38"

Work station 34"

California wants sales and service counters to be 34"?

What specifically is the problem with your current setup according to the inspector? Approach? Depth? Height? Width?

 

[Codegeek]

California appears to be more restrictive than ADA and ANSI? Yes that's a question.Sales and service counters 36" AFF, checkout isle rail up to 38"

Work station 34"

California wants sales and service counters to be 34"?

What specifically is the problem with your current setup according to the inspector? Approach? Depth? Height? Width?

The inspector wanted the checkout to have the 36 inch full depth at the checkout that's required for a service counter with a maximum height of 34 inches. Someone then said just to have a portion of it at 34 inches maximum in height. The code official finally ruled late yesterday that the checkout was acceptable at 38 inches.

 

[tmurray]

Large box retail - you do your shopping, go to the checkout counter to pay for your items. How is that a service counter when the purpose is to checkout? Does it make a difference if it's a self-checkout? I understand the 2013 CBC will integrate the 2010 ADA. The 2010 ADA indicates in Section 904.3 the requirements for check-out aisles and in 904.4 for service counters. There is no reference in the 2010 ADA from check-out aisles to service counters or vice versa.

At some retail spaces the checkout counter provides the same services as a service counter.

 

[Codegeek]

At some retail spaces the checkout counter provides the same services as a service counter.

Understood. In our situation, it did not, which is what generated the question why does it need to comply with both when it only serves one function.

 

[tmurray]

Understood. In our situation, it did not, which is what generated the question why does it need to comply with both when it only serves one function.

Maybe this is just a case of letting the inspector know what the purpose of the checkouts so they can relax their position.

 

[Jim B]

A Checkout Counter has the allowance for a 2” rail to go up to 38”. This is generally a “conveyor belt” type of checkout where this rail is used to keep items from falling off of the belt.

The belt on the counter is at 36” AFF max, just like a service counter

This is based on ANSI A117.1-2009

 

[Min&Max]

Well I like to keep things as simple as possible. If the customer is going to have to provide a signature to conduct their business I require a surface at a max. 34" high with a min. 36" length for side approach or min 30" width for front approach(and required depth for knee and toe area). After attending several ADA training seminars presented by our regional ADA Center and reading the 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design that is my interpretation of the content. I would look for this as an additional feature to a conveyor belt check-out as previously described.

 

[Codegeek]

The jurisdiction finally agreed that it was a checkout aisle. Thanks everyone for your input.