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Citing code sections for every single violation

Citing code sections for every single violation

  • ALL THE TIME, because I am required in my jurisdiction

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • ALL THE TIME, because I choose to

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • SOMETIMES, only when asked

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • SOMETIMES, when I feel like it (if challenged, etc)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • NEVER

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
jar546

jar546

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Wondering who, in every case, always cites the specific code section for each and every violation that is written up as a result of an inspection. I always do on plan review but not for every single inspection as it is not always asked for, not always needed and a serious time consumer. I do realize that some municipalities and State laws require it.

Please discuss
 
Almost never do I cite the section number even in plan reviews.

I've found that no one in the field has a code book so any number would do. However if asked I will furnish a code section and even the commentary if they wish to understand the reason for the call.
 
I asked this recently but never got an answer, where in any code does it mandate the citing of a code section when turning something down?

 
Oregon has an Adminstrative Rule requiring us to idenfiy code sections when writing corrections on inspections or plan review. Personally, I have always included code sections in my plan reviews. One of the positive things that have arisen from this is inspectors and plans examiners are reading the code more and it has greatly reduced inspectors "bluffing" someone because they thought the code was wrong or thought it was a good idea. If you can't cite, don't write it.
 
conarb said:
where in any code does it mandate the citing of a code section when turning something down?
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No where in any code does it state that I, the installer, has to prove to any inspector that my installation is compliant. If the inspector is prepared to tell me my install is non-compliant he better be prepared to not only cite an article but discuss it also.
 
I would offer that it could be interpreted to be in the code: IBC 104.2 states, "The BO shall (yadda, yadda) enforce compliance with the provisions of this code."

That could be read to say that in all of the identified duties for which the BO is responsible, compliance shall be enforced with* the provisions of this code.

In other words, the provisions of the code must be used by the BO for enforcement.

*Thesaurus entry:part of Speech: preposition

Definition: by means of

Synonyms: on, supported by, through, via, with the assistance of
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The only time I cite chapter and verse is on plan review for deficient items discovered. After a few years on the job I got tired of updating forms and now that I'm electronic I don't want to mess up the forms designer. Now if anyone questions it; I cordially provide them with a copy of the referenced code.

I have nothing against jurisdictions or states that mandate it, and thankfully our does not.
 
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No where in any code does it state that I, the installer, has to prove to any inspector that my installation is compliant. If the inspector is prepared to tell me my install is non-compliant he better be prepared to not only cite an article but discuss it also

Section 106.1.1;

Construction documents shall be of sufficient clarity to indicate the location, nature and extent of the work proposed and show in detail that it will conform to the provisions of this code and relevant laws, ordinances, rules and regulations as determined by the building official. What's their to discuss??
 
No where in any code does it state that I, the installer, has to prove to any inspector that my installation is compliant. If the inspector is prepared to tell me my install is non-compliant he better be prepared to not only cite an article but discuss it also

Section 106.1.1;

Construction documents shall be of sufficient clarity to indicate the location, nature and extent of the work proposed and show in detail that it will conform to the provisions of this code and relevant laws, ordinances, rules and regulations as determined by the building official. What's their to discuss??
 
I only cite code sections on plan review for deficiencies. Circle problem area, write code section, may include one or two words to describe problem (eg "safety glazing" or "specify nails"). What I am not going to do is write "footing required under this column that is holding up half the house" or "you must specify bracing for this 3-car garage with 1-foot wide walls next to every door"

On-site inspections I use plain English on the inspection card I leave. Happy to look up the corresponding section if they call the office afterward. Sometimes I will get contractor's cel phone number and call him when I return to the office with the exact wording of a section.
 
The most orderly manner I see for an applicant to know what it takes to "conform to the provisions of the code," or for an inspector to assess if the work complies with code, is if there are written rules.

The code offers such provisions, and 104.2 requires enforcement of the same, for which the applicants must demonstrate compliance per 106.1.1 (which is a later section, based on the premise of the identified criteria to which the design will be evaluated).

If 104.2 were not present, and the BO enforced their interpretation (per 104.1) of the code's intent (per 101.3), then compliance would effectively be a moving target, such that the designer would never know if their design would be considered to sufficiently provide for safety and welfare, even though it met the prescribed code provisions, and the inspector would never know if the BO would agree that the work provided for the same, even though it was completed in accordance with the prescribed provisions of the code.
 
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Check with your legal council on this. I think you'll find that in most states, if you do NOT cite chapter and verse then there is no requirement to comply with the citation. Without a code section citation, there is no backing to the request. Of course we all know that when the building inspector says something the contractor will likely try to do what is necessary. But when the pushing and the shoving starts, you may be holding an empty basket if there's no direction on what is needed.

I used to teach the legal concepts of code administration seminar years ago, and the citation of the relevant section is critical to the force of the citation. Without it, the citation is essentially a "wish list."
 
I looked up my CBC 104.1

104.1 Applications and permits. The building official shall receive applications, review construction documents and issue permits for the erection, and alteration, demolition and moving of buildings and structures, inspect the premises for which such permits have been issued and enforce compliance with the provisions of this code.
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My "legal" interpretation of that section is that it does not require citing code sections, I read it as:

  1. You must take in applications.
  2. You must review them (Plan Check).
  3. You must make inspections,
  4. You must enforce this code.
Nowhere do I read into your requirement to enforce the code a requirement to tell the permit holder which section he is violating. Citing sections may go a long way towards your mandate to enforce compliance, but I think you could say (for example): "The framing violates code, make it compliant".

Don't get me wrong, I think citing chapter and verse is a great service and very professional, and it does go a long way towards complying with your mandate, but I don't read it as a requirement, as much as I wish I could.

I just read Gene's post.

If the permit holder asked what was wrong with the framing, I think you would be able to just say: "It violates code", if there was an appeal you may be asked what about the framing violated code, then you would say (for instance): "The permit holder used 16d box nails when the code calls for 16d common nails", someone on the appellate board could then ask how that violated code, then you would have to cite the applicable code section to prove your case. Again, this discussion is all rhetorical, and I think it's an excellent idea to cite code sections by chapter and verse, I soon may be on the opposite of this argument and wish there was a clear mandate to force the inspector to cite code sections.

 
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I do it more like this

"On-site inspections I use plain English on the inspection card I leave. Happy to look up the corresponding section if they call the office afterward. Sometimes I will get contractor's cel phone number and call him when I return to the office with the exact wording of a section."

If it comes to a sit-down, I'll have a section referance available, even a copy for them. What I don't like, is to go through the whole submittal and write code sections for every issue. In many cases I feel like I am doing their design work for them. It depends on how far off they are, and what info they need.
 
Citing specific code sections prevents the opinions from creeping into enforcement.

Have you ever seen a traffic ticket without the vc number
 
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Conarb said:
104.1 Applications and permits. The building official shall receive applications, review construction documents and issue permits for the erection, and alteration, demolition and moving of buildings and structures, inspect the premises for which such permits have been issued and enforce compliance with the provisions of this code.
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Nowhere do I read into your requirement to enforce the code a requirement to tell the permit holder which section he is violating.It is your Item 4 that is adverse to the interpretation presented. Section 104.1 already authorizes and directs the BO to enforce the provisions of this code. It appears that the closing phrase of 104.3 "enforce compliance with the provisions of this code" could be applied to each of the actions required of the BO in this section:

The BO shall:

1. receive applications and enforce compliance with the provisions of this code (see also 106.1)

2. review construction documents and enforce compliance with the provisions of this code (see also 106.3)

3. issue permits and enforce compliance with the provisions of this code (see also 105.1)

4. inspect the premises and enforce compliance with the provisions of this code (see also 109.3)

If other sections as referenced above already require the BO to do these things, it need not be stated here, unless to clarify that when performing these duties, "enforce compliance with the provisions of this code."

This statement does not read "enforce compliance in accordance with the provisions of the code." Rather, it mandates that the BO in performing these duties, "enforce compliance with the provisions of this code," which a strict interpretation could construe to mean that the provisions of the code shall accompany (be with) the enforcement of compliance.

There is no doubt room for other interpretations in its application, as with most sections of the code, but when an earlier poster asked for a reference that could require such a mandate, this one appears to fit the bill.

Even if such a strict interpretation were accepted, it would be challenging to refute any action which referenced 104.1. This would probably not reduce the number of calls requesting clarification of the specific code section referenced, but it is a provision of the code being enforced!
 
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Depends on hte type of onspection. For a Fire Safety and PM inspection, my report generator allows me to copy & paste code sections.

Routine construction inspections are hand written in the field, and left at the job site. When asked for clarification, I give the code section and that's usually adequate. If they want more I email or deliver code sections.
 
Like some of the others, I give the code section on plan review. My inspectors use plain english on our hand written forms. If asked, we provide them with a code section and a copy of the applicable section.
 
Our admin procedure (adapted from state model) says permit holder can ask in writing for section reference. Written request requires written answer.
 
I chose sometimes when I feel like it. It isn't that I feel like it though but that answer best described when. I choose to do it sometimes when I feel that section would help the DP better understand where I am coming from and what I want back from him.

When I took this job I was told not to cite any sections. This was based on the fact that we send out two review letters. One to the DP and one to the owner/resident. The owner/resident is not going to understand word one from those sections and will only cause them to call us non stop and bog us down. So I have to write each review comment as if it is going only to the owner/resident. This way both the owner/resident and DP will/should be able to understand what I want.

I am not saying I agree with this philosophy. But I have to adhere to this requirement of my position.
 
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After having discussed this many times with DA's the citing of a violation without the code section and the specific reason for vioaltion, along with the date and location results in an unenforceable action. Judges do not like vague statements. If you don't care to ever take a violation to court then don't bother giving the correct information.
 
Plan reviews and fire prevention inspections 90% of the time a code section number and the written section is provided.

Corrections required during construction are usually plain english with the Chapter # or general Section # referenced.
 
In follow-up and after reading what has evolved since my last entry; Our electronic inspection form has the ordinance section, appeal section etc. Our man with suit has no issues with it and rarely does anyone push or shove with a cited deficiency on inspection thankfully. As mentioned previously, different story in review where we cite chapter and verse if submittal is gray or totally deficient of code reference and I admire those who continually keep up with the numbers for all their various sections where deficiencies can arrise from.
 
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