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Courtyard egress

R

Robert

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Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
345
Location
Pinole, CA
Hello. I am working with the owner of a bar (in CA) who wants to add an open air (partially covered) courtyard of about 500 sq. ft. to the rear of his bar. He does not want the courtyard egress communicating directly to the outside (parking area). He states the Bureau of Alcohol frowns upon this as it increases the likelihood of alcohol being brought in and/or removed from premises. Can the courtyard egress go back through the building to get back outside? I am looking at Sec 1004.5 CBC and it mentions path of travel passing through the building. Also, I am assuming all of the outdoor area (covered or not) will have an occupancy load similar to that of the bar (A-2). Thank you.
 
Yes they can exit back into the building

Is the building sprinkled??

When you say partial covered ,, how much?

And what type of material will the cover be??
 
Should have asked ,,

Does the existing bar have to code compliant exits already??

If so adding the patio, does not take away one??
 
Will the occupant load be more than 49 on the patio? Will two exits from that area be required? As cda asked, if two are required in the main space, will one the the main space exits be eliminated by enclosing the outdoor area?

These are usually the issues I see when it comes up.
 
fatboy said:
Will the occupant load be more than 49 on the patio? Will two exits from that area be required? As cda asked, if two are required in the main space, will one the the main space exits be eliminated by enclosing the outdoor area?

These are usually the issues I see when it comes up.
Click to expand...
cda said:
Yes they can exit back into the building

Is the building sprinkled??

When you say partial covered ,, how much?

And what type of material will the cover be??
Click to expand...

Thank you. Building is not sprinklered. I will keep the occ load less than 50 so to not require the second exit from the patio. The roof will be Corten...more of an awning, 5'x15' or so. The main space exit will not be eliminated by the new patio but will be moved. So if I understand correctly, the new exit will be sized for both the main building and the courtyard combined, and the courtyard occupants go back into the main building to exit.
 
Thank you Mark. We will have picnic tables and smaller tables & chairs loosely spaced (this is somewhat similar to inside the bar). I understand the occ load for tales and chairs at 15. Is the leftover space (which I think of as circulation around the seating, 44" +) counted also...as standing?
 
So when done, there will be code compliant exits from the building??

With proper seperation?
 
Not sure of Calif codes,

But adding to a non sprinkled assembly and you are not required to retro fit sprinklers???
 
yes, when done 2 exits with proper separation (there are 2 exits now). I don't believe sprinklers would be required.
 
Robert said:
yes, when done 2 exits with proper separation (there are 2 exits now). I don't believe sprinklers would be required.
Click to expand...


Sounds good

Might check on sprinklers.

Not in California, but you are adding more occupants to the building, and if not sprinkled now, we would require it,
If you bumped over 100 total ol
 
Thanks, I need to research it. The existing ol is posted in the bar as 120. I am coming up with a lower number and need to verify standing space vs. unconcentrated chairs and tables for the o.l.f.
 
And what if they do karaoke in the patio? This is not the best idea. Why not provide an alarmed gate to the parking lot? Will insurance allow no exit from patio to parking?
 
Most of them we do around here have an alarmed panic...but if it is small they can get away without...karaoke should not matter, tables and chairs vs. dance floor or concerts would.
 
Thanks for the input. I researched fire sprinklers and only required if we are adding 50% of new floor area. Alarmed gate to parking area may be considered. The patio will be about 450 sq. ft. What are people doing for occupancy counts in bars...standing or unconcentrated tables and chairs? If I do standing, obviously I will need to deduct all chairs and tables, then the leftover space (circulation) would be calculated at 5 olf rather than 15 olf?
 
You did not describe whether this courtyard is also serving as an exit discharge for any other uses. for example, if this courtyard were at the bottom level of a multistory mixed use building, and apartments above were using the courtyard as an "exit court" for their emergency escape bedroom windows.

Please note that your situation is not unique. Many a bar, restaurant and banquet hall faces security issues related to second exits.
Often they will install a "delayed egress" device: "push exit device for 10 seconds. alarm will sound" or something like that.
 
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