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Date of applications determines Base Flood Elevation even if the flood maps change before issuance?

jar546

jar546

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I believe with building permits, the BFE at the date of application applies, even if the FIRM maps and BFE change before it is issued.

However:

If Planning & Zoning is required before a building permit can be applied for, do you lock in the BFE using the P&Z application?

For example:

Application is made to P&Z for a new SFR on January 1
Application is approved by P&Z on Feb 1
FIRM maps and BFE change on Feb 2
Application for Building Permit is made on Feb 3

Do you recognize the FIRM maps and BFE for the date of P&Z application or Building Permit application?
 
If the adoption of the new code is properly advertised and the date is as close as your example ... I could see requiring compliance with the new code. But i suppose that’s why they rushed to get it across the desk before the new date.
 
Sometimes the new map will lower the BFE and sometimes it will raise it. If it lowers it, would you allow the new map to be used?
 
In California it is written into state law that the version of the building code that was in effect at the time of application governs the issuance of the permit.
 
Mark K said:
In California it is written into state law that the version of the building code that was in effect at the time of application governs the issuance of the permit.
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As does Pennsylvania. However, the FIRM maps change independently of the building code version. How is that addressed in California?
 
A related question does the height relate to finished interior floor height or something else
 
jar546 said:
As does Pennsylvania. However, the FIRM maps change independently of the building code version. How is that addressed in California?
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My understanding is that the version of the FIRM maps that were adopted when the code was adopted continue to be the version to be used for code purposes.. If the latest version is more severe the applicant may decide to use it but that is not a concern to the building department.
 
Mark K said:
My understanding is that the version of the FIRM maps that were adopted when the code was adopted continue to be the version to be used for code purposes.. If the latest version is more severe the applicant may decide to use it but that is not a concern to the building department.
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I believe that your understanding may be flawed. FEMA rules for the NFIP are completely independent of building codes regarding the FIRMs. FIRMs routinely change in the middle of a code cycle and must be adhered to for the municipality to participate in the NFIP. Failure to comply with FEMA rules and regulations for the NFIP can result in probation and possible removal from the NFIP, which would do two things. First, it would not allow residents to participate in the NFIP, forcing them to private flood insurance, which is extremely expensive, and second, it would cut off FEMA funds to the municipality for flood-related damage that they are normally reimbursed for. Essentially, when the FIRMs change, so do the requirements of the building codes; the only question is what date or event locks into the previous BFE. Regardless, the building or homeowner will feel the pinch when they are below BFE, and their insurance rates are higher than compliant neighbors.

Regarding your predictable jab at Building Departments, you may want to consider leaving the bubble you live in. In many instances, the required Floodplain Manager is the Building Official or a separate official that works directly with the Building Department. Each municipality participating in the NFIP must have a Floodplain Ordinance that drives the requirements for compliance. Local laws don't control Federal Rules.
 
jar546 said:
Application is made to P&Z for a new SFR on January 1
Application is approved by P&Z on Feb 1
FIRM maps and BFE change on Feb 2
Application for Building Permit is made on Feb 3
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Why two separate applications?
One application would simplify the process.
 
Establish a no-build zone far enough above the bfe that changes in the bfe won’t affect permitting.
 
jar546 said:
However, the FIRM maps change independently of the building code version
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Don't you have to adopt the new/amended maps first? Just because FEMA produces a new map does not make it effective the date the map was produced. The new map would still need to be adopted.

  1. g. The jurisdiction shall fill in this part of the table with: the date of the jurisdiction’s entry into the National Flood Insurance Program (date of adoption of the first code or ordinance for management of flood hazard areas); and the title and date of the currently effective Flood Insurance Study or other flood hazard study and maps adopted by the authority having jurisdiction, as amended.
FEMA seems to already address your concerns about the timing of when a map is in effect and what the insurance rate maybe.

If the flood risk is increasing and your property will be in a higher risk flood zone (e.g., Zone A to Zone X) or will have a higher Base Flood Elevation (BFE), the NFIP offers a cost-saving flood insurance rating option know as Grandfathering. Grandfathering allows property owners to “lock in” the lower risk flood zone or BFE for future rating.

The NFIP grandfathering rule allows policyholders who have a policy in effect before the updated maps become effective or have built-in compliance with the flood map in effect at the time of construction, to keep their previous flood zone or BFE to calculate their insurance rate. This can result in significant savings.
 
When interacting with the building department my focus is on compliance with the properly adopted laws. My understanding is that unless the jurisdiction has adopted the maps as part of a law they cannot require their use.

A jurisdiction cannot adopt a standard as a law such as revised FIRM maps that those adopting it are not able to know the content of. This is a basic principle of law. Thus the revised FIRM maps are only applicable if the adopting entity has formally adopted the maps after they are available. To adopt a standard that has not been finalized would not be a legal act.

While FEMA may impose some conditions on participation in NFIP those conditions are not laws that the jurisdiction and applicants for a permit are required by federal law to comply with. If it is desired that the applicants must comply with the latest FIRM Maps the latest maps must be adopted as law by the entity adopting the building code.

Building codes are not specifically addressed in the US Constitution and their adoption is one of the powers reserved for the states. Thus there can be no Federal Building Code.

In California the state building code is updated every 3 years. In order for a local jurisdiction to modify the state building code they must make certain finding and must file those modification with the California Building Standards Commission. My sense is that local jurisdictions are not formally adopting the updated FIRM maps that have changed mid cycle. Modifications to the FIRM maps must be treated as modifications to the building code and cannot be enforced separate from the building code.

Failure of the building code to use the latest FIRM maps may create problems for the jurisdiction but does not automatically change what the building owner must comply with. We must differentiate what is a law and what is participation in a voluntary federal program.

FEMA has no authority to impose building code requirements. FEMA does provide resources for those adopting building standards with the hope that the entity adopting building codes will use those resources and adopt the recommendations.
 
Mark K said:
FEMA has no authority to impose building code requirements. FEMA does provide resources for those adopting building standards with the hope that the entity adopting building codes will use those resources and adopt the recommendations.
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Mark, It is apparent you are out of your element. Most building codes, and especially the Florida Building Code have floodplain requirements taken right from the FEMA playbook incorporated into the code itself. In addition, if you have special flood hazard areas in your community and you have residents with mortgages, they are required to have flood insurance. The only way you can purchase from the NFIP is if your municipality participates in the NFIP which, is completely voluntary. Very few municipalities that have a special flood hazard area do not participate. As previously stated, your municipality not only forces residents to get private flood insurance which is astronomically expensive when the muni does not participate but they also forgo a lot of FEMA money and programs if a flood should happen.

When you participate in the NFIP, you must have a Floodplain Ordinance, often prepared at the State level and modified by the local jurisdictions, especially those that participate in the CRS which gives their residents a discount in flood insurance. Failure to enforce FEMA rules as adopted by the State & Local governments, puts the muni at risk and increases the insurance rates of the property owners.

I am assuming, Mark, that you don't work on projects in special flood hazard areas as an engineer, otherwise you would know all of this.
 
jar546 said:
Mark, It is apparent you are out of your element. Most building codes, and especially the Florida Building Code have floodplain requirements taken right from the FEMA playbook incorporated into the code itself. In addition, if you have special flood hazard areas in your community and you have residents with mortgages, they are required to have flood insurance. The only way you can purchase from the NFIP is if your municipality participates in the NFIP which, is completely voluntary. Very few municipalities that have a special flood hazard area do not participate. As previously stated, your municipality not only forces residents to get private flood insurance which is astronomically expensive when the muni does not participate but they also forgo a lot of FEMA money and programs if a flood should happen.

When you participate in the NFIP, you must have a Floodplain Ordinance, often prepared at the State level and modified by the local jurisdictions, especially those that participate in the CRS which gives their residents a discount in flood insurance. Failure to enforce FEMA rules as adopted by the State & Local governments, puts the muni at risk and increases the insurance rates of the property owners.

I am assuming, Mark, that you don't work on projects in special flood hazard areas as an engineer, otherwise you would know all of this.
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I fear that you have not understood what I said. The ability to require compliance with the FEMA program resides with the entity adopting the building code not with FEMA.

If we are talking about compliance with a federal regulation I do not see how the local jurisdiction would be able to enforce compliance. On the other hand, if we are talking about compliance with a state or local law that is compatible with the federal program then the local jurisdiction could have jurisdiction. Federal law or either state or local law.

BY talking about participation in the NFIP you are suggesting that a jurisdiction could decide not to participate in the NFIP. We are not contending that it is not a good idea to participate in the NFIP but rather that a local jurisdiction may decide not to participate.
 
Mark K said:
If we are talking about compliance with a federal regulation I do not see how the local jurisdiction would be able to enforce compliance. On the other hand, if we are talking about compliance with a state or local law that is compatible with the federal program then the local jurisdiction could have jurisdiction. Federal law or either state or local law.
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When you agree to participate in the NFIP, you agree to enforce the rules of the program. That is how it works. It is a program that you adopt by ordinance locally, and most states have oversight.
 
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