rshuey
Registered User
So, some people want to use the appendix for pools as a reference for a deck....without a pool? Seems legit...lol
smh.
smh.
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Deck with Stair
- Thread starter Keystone
- Start date
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
Another alternative is the gate operates similarly as a casement window with child fall protection devices.
Could do without the gate and take the ladder to the top of the guard. Have code compliance and the ladder is not required nor prohibited.
Could do without the gate and take the ladder to the top of the guard. Have code compliance and the ladder is not required nor prohibited.
Mac
Gold Member
Can the deck be built without stairs or a ladder?
north star
Sawhorse
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 4,596
$ - - - $
tmurray [ and others ],
Which section can be cited to require the self latching ?
Using a section from Appendix G will not be applicable as that Appendix is for
swimming pools only.
IMO, ...if the proposed ladder is not the "required" MOE from the residence,
then we cannot regulate it........While I would also like to see a compliant
MOE from the deck to grade, I can find no code section to support that
when I go to court......The gate can be required to meet Table 301.5
loading requirements though !
To Anyone: Please cite the applicable code sections to support a compliant
MOE to the Forum court.
$ - - - $
tmurray [ and others ],
Which section can be cited to require the self latching ?
Using a section from Appendix G will not be applicable as that Appendix is for
swimming pools only.
IMO, ...if the proposed ladder is not the "required" MOE from the residence,
then we cannot regulate it........While I would also like to see a compliant
MOE from the deck to grade, I can find no code section to support that
when I go to court......The gate can be required to meet Table 301.5
loading requirements though !
To Anyone: Please cite the applicable code sections to support a compliant
MOE to the Forum court.
$ - - - $
Mac
Gold Member
One example might be building the deck with stairs if there is an existing bedroom EERO opening onto the deck.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
Would you approve it if it had a permanent guard installed instead of a gate? what if I kept a screw gun right beside the guard so I could pull it off at the drop of the hat? The structure is no more or less accessible. What we are trying to do is balance property owner's rights with life safety.rshuey said:
How do you deal with tree houses?
tmurray
SAWHORSE
Required guards (sorry I don't have any ICC codes.) as stated before I doubt that there are too many codes that address ladders. Ultimately this will be a judgment call by the building inspector. I would approve something under my Code's Alternate Solutions.north star said:
rshuey
Registered User
That's a joke, yeah? Why would i inspect a tree house? I don't have tree house certifications.tmurray said:
Keystone
SAWHORSE
This ladder is not a necessary means of egress.
Yes the deck can be built without the ladder or customary stairs.
Yes the deck can be built without the ladder or customary stairs.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Tell the home owner they are providing easy access to the upper level for the occasional peeping tom or burglar that may decide to visit, Maybe they will choose to eliminate it;
We don't regulate the ladders attached to the house next to the EERO window and I can see this being the same if the gate was not there
Glad I don't have to make the decision.
We don't regulate the ladders attached to the house next to the EERO window and I can see this being the same if the gate was not there
Glad I don't have to make the decision.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
The actual reality of it is that the ladder is not covered by the code. If they call it "stairs" in their permit application or drawings then that is another story.
Although requiring the gate to be compliant similar to a pool is common sense and a great idea, we have no legal ability to require it. In the end, no matter how much I would not want this to fly, I don't think we could stop it except for those areas that are covered by the code. Then again, they have to prove that the gate meets the 200 pound load in any direction since it is acting as a guard.
Although requiring the gate to be compliant similar to a pool is common sense and a great idea, we have no legal ability to require it. In the end, no matter how much I would not want this to fly, I don't think we could stop it except for those areas that are covered by the code. Then again, they have to prove that the gate meets the 200 pound load in any direction since it is acting as a guard.
Rider Rick
Silver Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 468
Use the ladder to climb over the guard.
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
I'm reminded of a wood shop where they made removable guards that slide up out of the floor to allow a clear opening to hoist projects up to the 2nd floor; this could work in place of a gate.
Sometimes we are called upon to exercise good judgment towards intent other than what is specifically required when the code does not address certain conditions.
Upon further reflection in reference to child fall protections such as guards and barriers; tamper-resistant receptacles; the where is the logic when there can be an operable window inches above the floor where not more than 6 ft. above the outside grade does not require the child fall protection or safety glazing?
Another is required barriers for pools but not fish ponds or water gardens, etc.
Just saying
Sometimes we are called upon to exercise good judgment towards intent other than what is specifically required when the code does not address certain conditions.
Upon further reflection in reference to child fall protections such as guards and barriers; tamper-resistant receptacles; the where is the logic when there can be an operable window inches above the floor where not more than 6 ft. above the outside grade does not require the child fall protection or safety glazing?
Another is required barriers for pools but not fish ponds or water gardens, etc.
Just saying
Keystone
SAWHORSE
This is open for anyone to answer but is based on Jar's comment, "they have to prove that the gate meets the 200 pound load in any direction since it is acting as a guard". Situation same as this with deck with ladder stair or more common AG Pool with raised deck having gate at deck area, the deck would have landing area and gate swing, latch and meet all the typicals but how does one prove the gate which is now part of the barrier meets the 200 pound load in any direction?
north star
Sawhorse
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 4,596
% * % * %
designed, now what?....Does the inspector call them on it, ..who
determines the guard actually meets the 200 lb. loading ?
Most likely a structural engineer.
% * % * %
Unfortunately for them, an RDP will need to be hired to design andseal & sign the plans.....If the homeowner does not install it as is
designed, now what?....Does the inspector call them on it, ..who
determines the guard actually meets the 200 lb. loading ?
Most likely a structural engineer.
% * % * %
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
How hard can it be to compare its attachment with handrails that are required to meet the same criteria?
As a reminder pool barriers and gates are meant to obstruct access and to my knowledge the code does not reference a standard of load for it to resist. However (hear I go again making reference to intent) since barriers are geared for child protection should at least meet the guard infill minimum. And if they have a 3 ft. landing or floor on both sides of the gate then it would not be required to have a top rail to resist 200 lbs. concentrated load for fall protection.
As a reminder pool barriers and gates are meant to obstruct access and to my knowledge the code does not reference a standard of load for it to resist. However (hear I go again making reference to intent) since barriers are geared for child protection should at least meet the guard infill minimum. And if they have a 3 ft. landing or floor on both sides of the gate then it would not be required to have a top rail to resist 200 lbs. concentrated load for fall protection.
Interesting post. I've been asked about having a slide or fireman's pole type apparatus from a deck and often wondered how others see this. I see the ladder as sort of the same thing and the fact that they are installing a gate to serve as the guard for everyday use is interesting and adds the required safety for everyday safety if constructed properly. I'm inclined to allow such a thing to exist.
ZIG
ZIG
tbz
Silver Member
Late to the party but have the following notes:
1. I would treat the gate no different than you would a sliding door on the rear of a new home that has no deck yet, but the door was put in.
some require a guard and leave the door active, others allow for the door to be removed from service and secured with out a guard installed.
however requiring guard outside the gate seems redundant, but simply, have them bolt the gate closed and mark for future spiral staircase access.
2. Now here is my next question how do you treat a deep window well with EERO requirements that has a ladder coming up, say 9 ft to a gate in the guard around the window well? How is this any different than the deck with a gate and a ladder?
3. I will note that we have more than a few times built guards around a 2nd floor veranda or deck with gates to nowhere, noting on the drawings for future use, service access and install self closing hinges with self locking locks that only open with a key and then there are the decks off the house that the deck goes out over the water and then a ladder is installed to get down to the floating dock below, done a few of these, normally done with a landing outside the main deck, guard around, floor hatch and gate to access.
Now with that said, if the gate was mid span I would have to see the ladder placement to make my call, but I would hope that the 2 can meet in the middle with some sort of locking unit.
As to the loads, if the guard on both sides of the gate meets the load requirements, hinges and a good lock will more than be adequate unless the gate is just nothing.
1. I would treat the gate no different than you would a sliding door on the rear of a new home that has no deck yet, but the door was put in.
some require a guard and leave the door active, others allow for the door to be removed from service and secured with out a guard installed.
however requiring guard outside the gate seems redundant, but simply, have them bolt the gate closed and mark for future spiral staircase access.
2. Now here is my next question how do you treat a deep window well with EERO requirements that has a ladder coming up, say 9 ft to a gate in the guard around the window well? How is this any different than the deck with a gate and a ladder?
3. I will note that we have more than a few times built guards around a 2nd floor veranda or deck with gates to nowhere, noting on the drawings for future use, service access and install self closing hinges with self locking locks that only open with a key and then there are the decks off the house that the deck goes out over the water and then a ladder is installed to get down to the floating dock below, done a few of these, normally done with a landing outside the main deck, guard around, floor hatch and gate to access.
Now with that said, if the gate was mid span I would have to see the ladder placement to make my call, but I would hope that the 2 can meet in the middle with some sort of locking unit.
As to the loads, if the guard on both sides of the gate meets the load requirements, hinges and a good lock will more than be adequate unless the gate is just nothing.