Developing a New Concept and Making It Code Compliant

[Robert Ellenberg]

I've been posting here for several months but decided to be more open about my current project. I have hesitated because similar ventures have been controversial among code officials as well as others. However, I have found most contributors in this group to be extremely helpful if you have an attitude of striving to do things correctly--which I do.

But first let me tell a little about myself. I was first licensed as a GC in 1971 when I was 21. Since that time I have built for myself, with partners and for large merchant builders. I have built in hot humid climates and cold dry climates. I have built stick frame, masonry, prefab panels and modular. I have built entry level and I have built expensive custom. Much of what I have built--I designed. I have also spent a lot of time evaluating damage for insurers after catastrophes which has given me a lot of insight into what works structurally as well as claims related to mold, water intrusions, etc. As a builder I have always studied the codes because my goal is to do things the right way, the first time.

So what is this "controversial" project? Component houses based on ISBUs (shipping containers). But before you think, "Oh not again", please read on with an open mind. I started on this 6 years ago and since that time hired an engineer to evaluate my structural concepts, tested combinations of materials, fasteners, etc., ran our own controlled tests on the so called miracle ceramic paints, all in an effort to determine what works that is cost effective. And of course spent hundreds of hours re studying the codes (and asking questions here) in an effort to do everything EXACTLY right. I believe the end result will be very marketable as it is going to be a house of high quality, energy efficient, extremely strong and very cost effective. I am still about 6 months to a year away from building the prototype but it will not look like it is built from containers. They are fully concealed within the structure and the exterior is finished with cement board siding. The least exterior dimension is 24' (nothing 8' wide). If you were riding down the street it would simply appear to be a new house of contemporary or modern design (not seeing ugly shipping containers should eliminate neighborhood appearance, zoning and perception issues).

The purpose of this post is to solicit additional questions, comments and input. I find this group to be very anal (I am too) and tough scrutiny only helps improve my concept. I am going to take the time to fully explain the origins of my concept so this will be a lengthy post.

In 2003 my wife wanted to build a weekend cabin in the mountains of Northern New Mexico but I refused to even consider the idea because of the high frequency with which remote cabins are vandalized. The following year a friend made me aware of a hunting camp constructed with ISBUs and steel shutters. I was very familiar with ISBUs as it was what I used on a trailer for securing tools and materials on my job sites so I began to design a simple cabin. About 6 months into it (with several concepts sketched) I did an internet search to see if anyone had ever built with them and low and behold, it appeared it was a thriving niche market! After researching everything I could find over the next several months I came to several conclusions. 1) There were a lot of designers and architects with concept ideas looking for “guinea pig” clients but very little was being built. 2) Most all were clueless regarding the difficulties, code challenges and high costs—particularly the high costs. 3) There was a lot of misinformation out there. Again and again I saw concepts with code and design problems and most were claiming how cost effective they were going to be. As an experienced builder/designer I knew beyond any doubt that building a market-acceptable structure that was also cost effective would be extremely difficult. However, I was intrigued by the idea and still wanted my mountain cabin for myself. As time went on I watched as those that did get built came in at sometimes double the claimed budget and no one has produced a house that I would consider successful by my measurments.

From where I started 6 years ago a lot of what I had planned to do has changed. I believe what I have now developed is attractive (if you like modern, if you only like traditional styles you won’t think so), has many advantages over modular or kit houses and will be very cost effective—the most important aspect. It’s not difficult to build a cost effective home; a sustainable energy efficient home (there are homes putting energy back into the grid); or a stylish home of excellent quality. What is extremely difficult is to attain a high level of success in all three areas with the same house—but I have.

The adoption of the IRC by many jurisdictions makes it possible to design a house that can be put almost anywhere in the lower 48 provided I can accommodate different climate zones and the local code amendments that apply in many locations. I refer to these houses as component houses as they will shipped partially assembled and the price will include everything needed to complete them. I don’t refer to them as a “kit” home as most kits include only the structural parts and they are not assembled. My houses are not modular in that everything will be inspected locally on site, they will be site built homes. There are no closed walls so it is simply a site built home with some prefabricated components.

This just touches on the basics of the concept and doesn’t give much information but is in fact, the first public forum where I have posted any of this and here is why. I am a perfectionist and when we are finally underway I want to be selling a product that does everything I claim it does and that includes meeting all of the applicable codes in every detail. I am guessing that some of you will be curious enough to ask a lot of questions about how I intend to meet different requirements and along the way you may raise some questions I haven’t thought of. I lay in bed at night reading codes (bet you don’t know any other builder/designers that do that) but I still miss some things. If some of you want to know more about the basic designs I will answer as many questions as I can but there are many aspects that are proprietary processes (not necessarily patentable) so I may not be able to share some details.

Thanks again for all the help I have already received on this forum. I consider it the most valuable one I participate in.

 

[vegas paul]

I'd love to see some plans or renderings. I believe it is do-able within any jurisdiction that is willing to accept alternate methods and materials (that means an open-minded BO!). You could probably get individual modules engineered so that each and every home would not require individual engineering - saving money. This is especially true if your engineering included multiple designs based on frost depth, seismicity, wind, etc.

Might be tough getting a cell phone signal indoors, though!

 

[Robert Ellenberg]

Paul--Thanks for the response. I have a busy afternoon but I will respond this evening to your questions and any others that may be posted.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Robert,

I think your in the wrong pew; perhaps would be better in "open topics" or residential.

You might even build a single container demo; put it on wheels and use it for demonstration purposes; pitching it to BOs and municipal Officials (like council members). Use all their senses; not just something on paper.

A local Real Estate sales agent "hottie" and a wine and cheese open house for the city leaders.

Uncle Bob

 

[DRP]

What does this have going for it that can't be better accomplished using mobile or modular techniques?

 

[Robert Ellenberg]

Vegas Paul—I may post some sketches later on but I cannot yet as we have not registered the copyrights for the drawings. For the moment I will simply give a description. The 4 initial plans that have been completed in detail are all one story with sealed conditioned crawl spaces. Picture in your mind setting two 40’ long units side by side, spaced anywhere from 8’ to 16’ apart, giving you an overall foot print of 24’x40’ up to 32’x40’. Take the space between them, build the roof, add a floor system and end walls so that the center space is fully enclosed. Openings in the sides of the units that face that enclosed space provide access from the center and/or combine the spaces to make large open rooms.

Acceptance by the BO—It really should not take an open minded official. The houses will be fully code compliant with an engineer’s stamp AND calculations for structural components that are not met prescriptively. Also R104.11 states that alternative material, design or method of construction SHALL BE APPROVED WHERE THE BUILDING OFFICIAL FINDS THE INTENT OF THE PROVISIONS OF THIS CODE, AND THAT THE MATERIAL METHOD OR WORK OFFERED IS, FOR THE PURPOSE INTENDED, AT LEAST THE EQUIVALENT OF THAT PRESCRIBED IN THIS CODE. Having quoted that, I never go looking for a fight. Here is how we intend to work with our customers to present it to their local BO: We have drafted a short narrative describing the construction. Where we have a very interested prospect, we will furnish them that narrative along with a set of SAMPLE stamped plans and insist that they set an appointment and meet with their AHJ to show what they are contemplating. If they find a strong attitude of resistance, we will recommend that they abandon the idea and not build one of our houses. In the literature we provide for those prospects, we state the following, “You may find he is totally supportive of the idea of doing something totally innovative or at the opposite extreme “not in my backyard”, totally neutral, just doing his job without interjecting his personal opinion—or anywhere in between. YOU NEED TO “READ’ THIS VERY CAREFULLY IN DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT TO PROCEED.”

Engineering—The engineering will be the same for a repeat design but the engineer will have to be licensed in the state where the house is being built. In addition to the engineer who did my preliminary work I have met with one who has done some military work with ISBUs and is licensed in a number of states. In most cases it will be the expense of having the engineer recognized (licensed) in that state that will have to be added to the cost.

Radio Signals—Because the center section is conventional wood frame construction and there are plenty of doors and windows, this is not an issue.

Uncle Bob—Does this site have monitors? If I should move the thread to Residential I will be happy to, I just need someone to let me know if that is what I should do.

Demonstration Unit—We have considered the idea of putting a single ISBU on a trailer but have decided it would not be a good promotion. One of the major objections to building with ISBUs is the narrow 8’ space. Only our baths, kitchens in the 2 smallest homes and some walk-in closets are confined to 8’. All other rooms have much larger dimensions and an 8’ wide demonstration unit would not convey the feel of space that we actually have.

BO’s and Council Members—In the 6 years I have been pursuing this I have uncovered lots of instances of opposition and I believe my main chore will be to demonstrate I am not committing the “sins” of some who have gone before me. Many of the designers who have embraced the concept are drawn by the avant-garde and/or industrial “look”. Very few homeowners associations or neighbors agree with them and don’t want that “look” in their backyard. As stated earlier, you will not be able to detect that there are ISBUs within the structure unless you watch it being built. I also know that there have been aspects of designs that truly did not meet code (or the intent) that were designed, permitted and overseen by an architect. I don’t know the details of what happened but I suspect there was some of the architect “stamping” the design and the BO giving in. I will not be guilty of such.

Real Estate Agents—We will not do local marketing or work through any commissioned agents (more cost savings for the buyers). No matter how wonderful I might make them or how good a value they are, we are looking at a very small niche market. For that reason, if we could not market and deliver cost effectively most anywhere in the country, this would probably not have enough volume potential to be successful on a local basis. We will rely heavily on the internet and we have several print media that want to do a feature and a TV program interested. We figure 6 units annually will be the point needed to make it a worthwhile business venture.

DRP—This is not a mobile home but here are some of the comparisons (and advantages) over modular. Modular homes are closed wall construction and as such require in-factory inspections. First of all that requires an inspector licensed in the state where the modular is going. There is also the additional cost of those in-factory inspections being added to the cost of the home. Some states require that someone on the staff at the modular company be licensed as a GC in the state where it is going. Modular home facilities are expensive closed-in plants. We start with closed in structures and modify them, closing up our openings as we go. We don’t need much more than an open field, a potty and electricity to start up so our overhead is extremely low (more savings for the consumer). Low overhead will not only hold our cost down but put us in a position to weather a long slow start-up phase if that is what happens. Even our facilities once we pass 6 units annual production will be very low cost.

Lastly and probably most importantly is transportation cost. The cost of moving heavy wide modules limits the feasibility of selling modular units more than a few hundred miles from the production facilities. We will finish out at about 9’ which means we can transport with just WIDE LOAD signage—no escort vehicles (minor exceptions). All of the conventional lumber for the center sections and about half of the drywall will be purchased locally and the components are light enough to be pulled with a heavy duty pickup truck. We estimate our delivery cost will be about 1/3 or maybe even less than that of modular units. In addition, we have designed a proprietary delivery and unloading system that will eliminate the need for a crane on flat or moderate sloped lots—something most modulars cannot do. Another huge cost savings for the buyer.

 

[Big Willie]

Robert,

Congratulations on developing and pursuing the idea of more affordable, code compliant,

energy efficient houses. As you, and others, are already aware, the idea is not new.

It has been around awhile and is growing in popularity. The concept is atypical to

most builders, homeowners ( and potential homeowners ), elected officials and us

code officials as well.

For those who are interested, see the links of some of these new concept type

structures.

Robert, some of the attached links may even give you some additional ideas.

Good luck with your venture and thanks for sharing it with us. Post some

pics. when you can!

http://www.fabprefab.com/fabfiles/containerbayhome.htm

and

http://www.greendiary.com/entry/20-amazing-homes-made-from-shipping-containers/

and

http://weburbanist.com/2008/05/26/cargo-container-homes-and-offices/

 

[DRP]

Robert, Are the containers housing the "high dollar" rooms and the conventional framing is building open space?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Robert,

I am glad you are doing well; and are excited about your "product"; but, I think that the;

"WELCOME FORUM" is hardly the place to test acceptance of your product by Building Officials.

Maybe I'm way out of line here; but, I think you shouldn't be hawking your product here.

Sorry,

Uncle Bob

 

[Robert Ellenberg]

Big Willie--thanks for the comments. I have seen all of the references you listed. However, will all due respect, NONE of them have any semblance to what I am doing. Every one of them is obviously built from ISBUs and our houses will not have that appearance. If you like that look, fine. But it is that look that has turned so many against the concept.

To achieve the affordable side without giving up on quality and energy efficiency is the most difficult. It is literally hundreds and hundreds of little things that make up those savings and though the designs will have quite a few options, there is not room for changes outside of those options.

For those of you reading and not posting, ask me code compliant questions. That is truly my goal in sharing on this forum.

 

[Robert Ellenberg]

DRP--I am not sure but I think you are asking if baths, kitchens etc. are in the side units. The baths are but some of the kitchens open up and occupy some of both spaces.

Uncle Bob--I am sorry you perceive it as "hawking". If you simply mean I should move it to the Residential Code section since I am soliciting questions concerning code compliance for a proposed house--please say so, I'll move it. But I have honestly asked for questions and feedback. This is not on the market nor posted anywhere else so I am not sure what it is that you feel I am doing that is in appropriate. I will admit that I thought about this posting for weeks before doing so as I was afraid it would somehow be perceived as wrong or offensive to some, but that is not my intention. I am simply seeking input from professionals that will help pave the road for when they are in production. I see that as helping me, new homeowners and the BO's that will be inspecting them. If I should not be seeking that here, I sincerely apologize.

 

[mtlogcabin]

View attachment 464

I have seen this type of construction a couple of times. This was a silver mine

(exempt from building codes in MT) The containers are stacked and welded together. a sill plate is bolted to the top and the trusses fastened to the top plate. This "building" created a 40' x 60' parking area for equipment.

 

[globe trekker]

Robert,

Can you please elaborate a little more on your planned "sealed conditioned crawl spaces"

( i.e. - clearances for the trades people & maintenance of the various systems, ...insulating

systems, ...any planned lighting, ...flooring, etc. ). Are you thinking of a basement as

the "conditioned crawl spaces"? Us ' larger sized people ' need more room to maneuver! :-D

Thanks!

.

 

[FM William Burns]

Please be advised that this (so far) should be acceptable so long as it remains a Q & A and discussion on the applicable codes for the concept. Once it heads down a path of similar or associated attempts to create marketing buzz (Egg straping etc.) it will be or should be shut down.

 

[Robert Ellenberg]

MTLOGCABIN—I had not seen this one but have seen similar structures in Texas. I think ISBUs are pretty easy to use creatively for industrial use. However, making them a code compliant residential structure that looks like a house and not containers is difficult.

GOBE TREKKER—The height and construction of the crawl space will obviously vary by site and climate zone and could be a basement, though that is not planned for. We have drafted guidelines for foundation/crawl space construction but it will be the responsibility of the owner/local builder. My personal exposure to the concept of a conditioned crawl space goes back several years when Joe L. at Building Science Corp. was studying them prior to the 2003 IRC which allowed them. I built a personal home in the mountains of Northern New Mexico where I sealed the crawl with 6 mil plastic, poured a rat slab and used exterior foam insulation and water proofed it the same as a basement. The HVAC ducts (along with a supply and return for the crawl space) and water piping all ran there and we were very pleased with the performance. A bonus was having heated floors without the expense of radiant, though not quite as warm as radiant. However, the slab was a lot of additional cost and the exterior foam would be problematic in warmer climates where termites are a concern. We have two foundation designs, one with a continuous masonry perimeter wall and one with piers and curtain walls (steel reinforced poured concrete piers tied into the footings and curtain walls of frame construction with pressure treated lumber) between the piers so either way the perimeter is closed in. Instead of plastic and concrete we will seal with 20mil fabric reinforced vinyl tarps. They can be purchased used and are not only cost effective but can be easily seam sealed and are nearly impossible to tear. There should also be a radon vent under the tarps in most locations and they are easy to do. If you frame the curtain walls you can use cavity insulation on the interior. A drawback of insulated foundation walls is the potential for termite tunnels to be hidden but interior cavity insulation at least makes it pretty easy to do a periodic inspection. We also recommend having the interior grade under the house higher than the exterior if at all possible. If not, you should do proper water proofing with drain tile, gravel, filter cloth, etc. Most of the mechanical equipment will be within the house (HVAC, water heater, water distribution manifold) within a utility closet and code dictates minimal clearance under the house as well as no lights. However, we recommend 3’ clearance height exactly for the reasons you state and recommend the installation of several lights. The HVAC ducts will be uninsulated using a radial design so the air volumes at each register should be pretty even. One last note on you large people “maneuvering”. Unless it is the middle of the winter, we recommend building the curtain walls and installing the tarps after the rough ins are complete as it makes both light and access for everyone easier. One other item is the steel floor joist presents a challenge for electric wire. We will install several running boards going the full length so that cable can be neatly stapled if going perpendicular to joists.

 

WILLLIAM BURNS¬-Thanks for responding as I not only understand your concern but share it and will explain why. First of all, this type of forum is not the place if that is what someone is attempting to do. There are lots of websites and forums that want to discuss the latest concept from a design viewpoint, etc. However, after a lot of debate we have actually made a conscious decision to actually avoid creating “marketing buzz”. Something I have observed on many occasions is designers do this in an attempt to find what they call an “early adopter”—I call them guinea pigs! If they don’t find one, very often the proposed design never gets built. I think people have seen this happen so often that creating “marketing buzz” actually takes away from the credibility of whether or not the proposed project will ever be built. We want to have all the issues worked out before making announcements (code, production, actual cost, etc.) so we made that conscious decision and will not even make our website accessible until the components for the prototype are finished and on site ready to complete.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Robert,

My first post on this thread was to gently suggest that your subject was in the wrong place on this website;

"I think your in the wrong pew; perhaps would be better in "open topics" or residential. "

My second was more direct, and, a little more to the point;

"I am glad you are doing well; and are excited about your "product"; but, I think that the;

WELCOME FORUM is hardly the place to test acceptance of your product by Building Officials. "

The first thread here on the WELCOME FORUM was by Jeff; welcoming people to this forum.

The second thread here was members telling a little about themselves and welcoming new vistors to this forum.

Yours is about using containers to build homes!

I have posted a thread under "Residential Building Codes"; and the subject is container built homes; because that is where it would be more appropriate.

I believe you are an educated professional and know that this is not the proper place to post your product.

You have covered up the Welcome Forum with your thread; and the purpose of the forum, WELCOME FORUM; is lost in a sea of you describing your product.

I am asking that this thread be removed; not closed; but, removed from this topic section.

Uncle Bob

 

[texasbo]

I agree that this is not the appropriate place for the discussion. I have no problem with new ideas (although this is by no means new), and I really have no problem if someone wants to hawk their product, whether it's tor-eggs or anything else. But none of it has any business under this topic.

 

[FM William Burns]

Agree with UB!

Jeff or Rjj, could you please move this and post these responses in the thread UB mentions "container built homes" created in Residential Building Codes?

(Specfifically Post #'s 15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8, 7, 6, 5, 2 and 1)

Thanks,

 

[Uncle Bob]

FM,

I agree that only Jeff and Richard (Jar & RJJ) and/or the original poster should be the ones to make this type of decision.

In fact Jar and RJJ; should agree before makng such a decision.

To me; the whole thread should be moved and/or removed from this topic section.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Robert,

I honestly wish you the best in your business,

Uncle Bob

 

[jar546]

Any of the moderators could have moved this thread to another location if they felt it was necessary. That is not a big deal. I will move it. I think it is a great post by the OP and although it does cover a great introduction which is more than appropriate for the Welcome forum, it also has a more technical side more appropriate somewhere else. Maybe there is a way to split the thread. No, I will just move it.

 

[GHRoberts]

Robert Ellenberg ---

I like your idea. I suppose the containers are the load bearing components of the structure - really nice to have the option of walls of windows between the sections.

I would suggest doing engineering on the containers to determine just how much load can be supported by them.