Do floor assemblies require insulation per ASTM E119 , or just resistance?

[blugosi]

I understand that for type IA construction the rating requirement for floor assemblies is 2 hours per ASTM E119.

I am not familiar with ASTM E119 and I am trying to find out if this 2hr requirement is just resistance (maintaining structural integrity) or it also refers to insulation.

I have an older (year 2000) copy of ASTM E119 and in the "Tests of floors and roofs" chapter, the conditions of acceptance include (31.1.2) which says that transmission of heat through the specimen during the classification period shall not have been such as to raise the average temperature on its unexposed surface more than 250 degrees Fahrenheit (139 Celsius) above its initial temperature.

This is an insulation requirement, right? In Europe we have a three letter classification such as REI120.

R = Load-bearing. The ability of a construction element to preserve its’ mechanical characteristics and the relevant load capacity during a normal fire.
E = Integrity. In other words, the structure’s ability to NOT allow the passage or production of gas or vapor to the area NOT exposed to the fire.
I = Thermal Insulation. To clarify, the ability of a structure to reduce within a temperature limit the transfer of heat to the unexposed (cold) side. The temperature limit is usually 140°C.

I am asking because one FP engineer in this project insists that ASTM E119 does does not have an insulation criteria and a R120/EI60 certified slab (Just 60 minutes' insulation) is acceptable for Type IA.

Is it correct that ASTM E119 sets no insulation requirement? This would mean that the floor temperature during a fire at the story below could ingnite carpets, furniture etc, on the story above the fire.

 

[RLGA]

An assembly tested per ASTM E119 is required to meet the criteria for the full classification period, including radiant heat transmission.

 

[blugosi]

An assembly tested per ASTM E119 is required to meet the criteria for the full classification period, including radiant heat transmission.

Thank you !!!
I was correct after all!
It is practically the same like on our side of the Atlantic

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

To expand on this above, blugosi, you are correct but not correct.

As RLGA commented, ASTM A119 includes testing for heat transmission. That's all it does. ASTM E119 does not "require" insulation -- it tests how much heat a complete assembly transmits.

A company that invents a new, miracle floor assembly that can do everything, be twice as strong, and weighs half as much, can submit their magic system to an accredited testing laboratory to see if it meets ASTM E119 parameters. ASTM E119 does NOT say the tested assembly must contain insulation. It says the tested assembly shall not result in a temperature rise of ___ degrees. It doesn't in any way dictate how you can/shall/must achieve that.

In other words -- ASTM E119 is a performance standard. It is not a prescriptive description of how to construct a floor assembly.

 

[blugosi]

To expand on this above, blugosi, you are correct but not correct.

As RLGA commented, ASTM A119 includes testing for heat transmission. That's all it does. ASTM E119 does not "require" insulation -- it tests how much heat a complete assembly transmits.

A company that invents a new, miracle floor assembly that can do everything, be twice as strong, and weighs half as much, can submit their magic system to an accredited testing laboratory to see if it meets ASTM E119 parameters. ASTM E119 does NOT say the tested assembly must contain insulation. It says the tested assembly shall not transmit more than ___ amount of heat (or shall not result in a temperature rise of ___ degrees -- I'm not going to look up how it's expressed.

In other words -- ASTM E119 is a performance standard. It is not a prescriptive description of how to construct a floor assembly.

Agreed.

When a Code (IBC, NFPA 5000 etc) requires a 2 hr rated floor assembly, the ASTM E119 test must have proven that the selected assembly meets the relevant requirements.

These requirements include radiant heat transmission, specifically that for two hours application of the ASTM E119 temperature curve , the temperature on the unexposed side must not increase more than 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Am I wrong here?

The situation I am in is a R-1 high-rise hotel, requiring IA construction type, which has 2 hr rating requirements for floor construction.
The structural engineers specified floor slabs tested R120 / EI60 per the European test standard. This means that the slab will hold its place for 2hr, but temperature on the unexposed side may rise more than 250 degrees Fahrenheit after the 60th minute. I would expect to see REI120 instead.

The US based FP engineers claim that ASTM E119 does not have an insulation criteria, meaning that we don't need any rating for radiant heat transmission.

What do you think?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

The US based FP engineers claim that ASTM E119 does not have an insulation criteria, meaning that we don't need any rating for radiant heat transmission.

What do you think?

The US-based FP engineer doesn't understand ASTM E119.

As I explained above, ASTM E119 does not have "insulation criteria." In this the FP engineer is correct. But ASTM E119 is not a cookbook recipe for how to construct an assembly, it is a description of how to test an assembly and what performance criteria the assembly must satisfy to pass the test. One of the criteria is temperature rise over time (the duration of the test period). It is not the role of the ASTM E119 standard to require insulation, but if the assembly can't pass the test without insulation then insulation is required.

The FP engineer may be more accustomed to working with U.L. (Underwriters Laboratories) listed assemblies. In the U.L. design manual, they list various assemblies prescriptively, then they assign a rating based on fire tests of the assembly (45-minutes, 1-hour- 90-minutes, 2-hour, 3-hour). Some U.L. designs don't have insulation, some require insulation, and in others insulation is optional. ASTM E119 isn't a U.L. design manual. It's a performance standard, not a cookbook.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

This is probably what you already found on-line, from the 2000 edition of E119:



You mentioned section 31.1.2 for the temperature rise. That's for restrained assemblies. The reference for unrestrained assemblies is 32.1.2, and the temperature rise is still limited to 250 degrees F.

 

[blugosi]

As I explained above, ASTM E119 does not have "insulation criteria."

Thank you!

I suppose this is also a terminology issue.
If you have a look at my first post, the European Codes definition of insulation is "the ability of a structure to reduce within a temperature limit the transfer of heat to the unexposed (cold) side". It is closer to Ron's reference to "radiant heat transmission."

This is what I was trying to figure out, it is clear now. The slab must be tested and meet the temperature rise requirement mentioned in ASTM E119.
60 minutes transmission of heat, does not qualify the slab as 2hr.

 

[blugosi]

This is probably what you already found on-line, from the 2000 edition of E119:

View attachment 13968

You mentioned section 31,1,2 for the temperature rise. That's for restrained assemblies. The reference for unrestrained assemblies is 32.1.2, and the temperature rise is still limited to 250 degrees F.

A couple of posts before I attached a PDF file with references on the E119 edition 2000 and SFPE handbook as well.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Thank you!

I suppose this is also a terminology issue.
If you have a look at my first post, the European Codes definition of insulation is "the ability of a structure to reduce within a temperature limit the transfer of heat to the unexposed (cold) side". It is closer to Ron's reference to "radiant heat transmission."

I guess we would refer to or describe that as "insulating value" rather than "insulation." In our normal use, "insulation" refers to a product: fiberglass batts, expanded polystyrene, extruded polystyrene, expanded (foamed) cementitious products, etc.

This is what I was trying to figure out, it is clear now. The slab must be tested and meet the temperature rise requirement mentioned in ASTM E119.
60 minutes transmission of heat, does not qualify the slab as 2hr.

Correct. The temperature rise criterion must be met at the end of the test period. For a 1-hour rating, the temperature can't rise more than 250 degrees F. over a test duration of 60 minutes. For a 2-hour rating, the temperature can't rise more than 250 degrees F. over a test duration of 120 minutes. The semantic problem is that this does not (in American terms) necessarily equate to an "insulation" requirement. It's completely unrelated to insulation values for energy conservation purposes, which in the U.S. are typically expressed as R-value or U-value.

A thick, monolithic floor slab of lightweight concrete might meet the 2-hour test (including temperature rise) without having any "insulation" [product] in the assembly.

 

[blugosi]

A thick, monolithic floor slab of lightweight concrete might meet the 2-hour test (including temperature rise) without having any "insulation" [product] in the assembly.

Yes. It most probably would.

According to the Eurocodes, a 120 mm thick composite slab, reinforced as required with steel of course, is usually rated REI120. The specific slab specified by the structural engineer is 100 mm with 80mm minimums.

Similar graphs are available in the SFPE handbook and other US documents.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Yes. It most probably would.

According to the Eurocodes, a 120 mm thick composite slab, reinforced as required with steel of course, is usually rated REI120. The specific slab specified by the structural engineer is 100 mm with 80mm minimums.

Similar graphs are available in the SFPE handbook and other US documents.

View attachment 13969

Charts and graphs are interesting, but if the code says "Per ASTM E119," then the assembly you use must have been tested (and passed) under ASTM E119. Assemblies that appear to be equivalent under your European standards are not acceptable unless you can persuade the building official to accept the European assembly as equivalent and compliant.