Do the two stairs in the top and right need be accessible to exit level from the first floor directly?

[ElArch]

Hi,
I post this before but still not clear. Please see the first floor plan.

This is a 4 story type 5 building. The building is separated to two areas, building A and B. Building A has two accessible exits directly to exit ground. But the top exit has to go down half floor in the stair to ground level. I think this exit also need to be accessible from the first floor to ground level.
The right side stair in building B also needs to go down half story to ground exit. I want to use the elevator nearby to make this exit accessible.

Please let me know if I have to make the top stair accessible to ground level? Thanks!

 

[Sifu]

You need two AMOE's, continuous to the public way. The elevator might work as an AMOE provided it has standby power, but if 4 stories it is not required to be one of them. If a stair needs to be an AMOE it will need an area of refuge or an exterior area for assisted rescue. The ADA and ANSI/ICC folks prefer an exterior area for assisted rescue over an area of refuge, but either is approved. It looks like you might have a horizontal exit, which can also be used but only for the first floor, which you don't appear to need.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

You need two AMOE's, continuous to the public way. The elevator might work as an AMOE provided it has standby power, but if 4 stories it is not required to be one of them. If a stair needs to be an AMOE it will need an area of refuge or an exterior area for assisted rescue. The ADA and ANSI/ICC folks prefer an exterior area for assisted rescue over an area of refuge, but either is approved. It looks like you might have a horizontal exit, which can also be used but only for the first floor, which you don't appear to need.

You can use an elevator as one of the required means of egress (including an accessible means of egress) if the elevator meets all the bells and whistles required for elevators as means of egress, BUT ... you can't use a stair to come down three or four stories and then have to leave the stair (exit enclosure) and transition back through the building to an elevator to continue down to the level of exit discharge. If the stair is an exit from an upper story, that exit must continue uninterrupted to the exit discharge.

 

[walker.t]

Please let me know

You didn’t ask about these things, but I noticed a couple of other things on your plan that might need your attention. I’m not expecting a response to these comments, just passing them along.

1. This is not code-related, but in Building A Gym, might want to confirm the size of the equipment to see if they need double doors.
2. Building A Community A-3 (to the right of Gym,) occupant load is 126 occupants, you show three doors, only one swings in the direction of egress travel. Per 1010.1.2.1 Direction of Swing, doors have to swing in the direction of travel when the occupant load of the room being served is 50 or more.
3. Building B Trash (to the right of Laundry,) you call out the occupancy as S-2 Low-Hazard Storage which is for the storage of non-combustible materials. My trash can has a few things that will burn in it, the cardboard in my recycle bin next to the trash will definitely burn, I think you want to call out your trash room as S-1.
4. Not sure why you’re using a horizontal exit if your travel exit access travel distances do not exceed the values in Table 1017.2.

 

[ElArch]

The

You didn’t ask about these things, but I noticed a couple of other things on your plan that might need your attention. I’m not expecting a response to these comments, just passing them along.

1. This is not code-related, but in Building A Gym, might want to confirm the size of the equipment to see if they need double doors.
2. Building A Community A-3 (to the right of Gym,) occupant load is 126 occupants, you show three doors, only one swings in the direction of egress travel. Per 1010.1.2.1 Direction of Swing, doors have to swing in the direction of travel when the occupant load of the room being served is 50 or more.
3. Building B Trash (to the right of Laundry,) you call out the occupancy as S-2 Low-Hazard Storage which is for the storage of non-combustible materials. My trash can has a few things that will burn in it, the cardboard in my recycle bin next to the trash will definitely burn, I think you want to call out your trash room as S-1.
4. Not sure why you’re using a horizontal exit if your travel exit access travel distances do not exceed the values in Table 1017.Thank you very much

 

[ElArch]

Thank you very much!
I will correct 1-3.
For item #4, I don't quite understand when I need a horizontal exit. The building is separated to two buildings, building A and building B. The horizontal exit door is at the fire separation wall. Can you explain more if I need to show horizontal exit at that door?

 

[walker.t]

Thank you very much!

You’re welcome!

I don't quite understand when I need a horizontal exit

No worries, I’ll try to explain my understanding of the matter.

The means of egress has three parts: the exit access (any occupiable part of the building leading to an exit,) the exit (between the exit access and the exit discharge,) and the exit discharge (between the termination of an exit and a public way.) A “horizontal exit” is a type of exit component, on your plan you have interior exit stairways which is another type of exit component. The IBC Chapter 2 definition of “exit” lists the types of exit components.

Referring to your plan, in Building B we have Unit D1 and Unit B, you show dashed lines from those units which I assume represent your exit access travel distance. We need the exit access travel distance measured from a remote point in the building to an exit to be within the distance permitted by Table 1017.2. I know you know that because you have the “Travel Distance” chart on the right side of the sheet with information about that.

The path from Unit D1 goes through your horizontal exit and to the front door and you reach the front door within the maximum travel distance in Table 1017.1, therefore you don’t need the horizontal exit. If you really needed the horizontal exit the distance would stop at the horizontal exit. If the travel distance from Unit D1 to the front door was more than 250’ you’d have to find a way to get to an exit within the allowable 250’. In some cases exit passageways are used to create a protected path to an exit door. Another option would be to use an horizontal exit. The way you have it drawn, there’s a refuge area on the Building A side of the horizontal exit for occupants on the Building B side of the horizontal exit. But because the front door is within the exit access travel distance starting in Unit D1 they don’t need the extra protection of the horizontal exit and a refuge area, they just keep going to the exit at the front of the building.

The path from Unit B goes to an interior exit stairway, because that’s an exit component we stop the exit access travel distance there. Your Unit B path is longer than the path from Unit D1 but because it is less than the maximum exit access travel distance from Table 1017.2 it is OK.

Can you explain more if I need to show horizontal exit at that door?

You don’t need an horizontal exit because you can get from Unit D1 to the front door within the exit access travel distance.

The building is separated to two buildings, building A and building B. The horizontal exit door is at the fire separation wall.

I noticed you referred to two “buildings” on your plan and I wondered briefly if the horizontal exit was a fire wall. A fire wall is more than just a “fire separation wall,” it has to remain standing if construction on one side of the wall collapses during fire, the fire wall also goes from the foundation to or through the roof. A fire wall divides a building into smaller “buildings” for purposes of determining allowable area, height, and number of stories and the extent of construction type. Maybe your client doesn’t want to build a Type I or Type II building but you have a very large area. So you split your building up with fire walls so each part is within the limits of Type IIIB (or whatever.) Having a fire wall does not mean it is is also a horizontal exit - for example, maybe you don’t have the refuge area.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I noticed you referred to two “buildings” on your plan and I wondered briefly if the horizontal exit was a fire wall. A fire wall is more than just a “fire separation wall,” it has to remain standing if construction on one side of the wall collapses during fire, the fire wall also goes from the foundation to or through the roof. A fire wall divides a building into smaller “buildings” for purposes of determining allowable area, height, and number of stories and the extent of construction type. Maybe your client doesn’t want to build a Type I or Type II building but you have a very large area. So you split your building up with fire walls so each part is within the limits of Type IIIB (or whatever.) Having a fire wall does not mean it is is also a horizontal exit - for example, maybe you don’t have the refuge area.

But the plan labels it as a horizontal exit. Even though the horizontal exit has opposing swing doors (allowing for egress in either direction), the plan only declares the Building A side as an area of refuge.

 

[Yikes]

If it were my design, I'd try this approach to the AMOE:
1. Aside form the community room, which already has its own exit directly to the exterior, both building A and building B need two exits based on occupant load.
2. 1009.1 says AMOE has to be provided in the same number as the # of required exits. It does not say that the AMOE must be the same path as the required exits.
3. Based on #2 above, I would make the Building A AMOE the stair #1 (1009.2.2) and the horizontal exit (1009.2.7). I would make the Building B AMOE the stair #3 and the horizontal exit. I know I'm just eyeballing it, but it looks like the corridors provide plenty of refuge space for the horizontal exit and for stairway refuge.

 

[walker.t]

But the plan labels it as a horizontal exit.

I noticed that, I just questioned why they had a horizontal exit at all when the front doors were within the exit access travel distance.

Even though the horizontal exit has opposing swing doors (allowing for egress in either direction), the plan only declares the Building A side as an area of refuge.

Not sure why they have the opposing swing doors when there is a refuge area on only one side of the door, but my understanding is that horizontal exits don’t have to work in both directions.

you show dashed lines from those units which I assume represent your exit access travel distance

Note to self: “Dear Self, see that thing on the right side of the sheet that says ‘Legend’ above it? Next time before you make an assumption see if maybe the linetype is called out there!” (Which it is, the heavy dashed line is indeed the exit access travel distance.)

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Not sure why they have the opposing swing doors when there is a refuge area on only one side of the door, but my understanding is that horizontal exits don’t have to work in both directions.

They don't. But I believe even if it only functions as an exit in one direction, it still requires a standpipe on both sides. (See IBC 905.4)

 

[elevatesolutions]

It depends on building codes and egress requirements. If these stairs are part of the primary exit routes, they may need to provide direct access to the exit level. You may need to check local regulations or consult a code expert for confirmation.

 

[ElArch]

You’re welcome!


No worries, I’ll try to explain my understanding of the matter.

The means of egress has three parts: the exit access (any occupiable part of the building leading to an exit,) the exit (between the exit access and the exit discharge,) and the exit discharge (between the termination of an exit and a public way.) A “horizontal exit” is a type of exit component, on your plan you have interior exit stairways which is another type of exit component. The IBC Chapter 2 definition of “exit” lists the types of exit components.

Referring to your plan, in Building B we have Unit D1 and Unit B, you show dashed lines from those units which I assume represent your exit access travel distance. We need the exit access travel distance measured from a remote point in the building to an exit to be within the distance permitted by Table 1017.2. I know you know that because you have the “Travel Distance” chart on the right side of the sheet with information about that.

The path from Unit D1 goes through your horizontal exit and to the front door and you reach the front door within the maximum travel distance in Table 1017.1, therefore you don’t need the horizontal exit. If you really needed the horizontal exit the distance would stop at the horizontal exit. If the travel distance from Unit D1 to the front door was more than 250’ you’d have to find a way to get to an exit within the allowable 250’. In some cases exit passageways are used to create a protected path to an exit door. Another option would be to use an horizontal exit. The way you have it drawn, there’s a refuge area on the Building A side of the horizontal exit for occupants on the Building B side of the horizontal exit. But because the front door is within the exit access travel distance starting in Unit D1 they don’t need the extra protection of the horizontal exit and a refuge area, they just keep going to the exit at the front of the building.

The path from Unit B goes to an interior exit stairway, because that’s an exit component we stop the exit access travel distance there. Your Unit B path is longer than the path from Unit D1 but because it is less than the maximum exit access travel distance from Table 1017.2 it is OK.


You don’t need an horizontal exit because you can get from Unit D1 to the front door within the exit access travel distance.


I noticed you referred to two “buildings” on your plan and I wondered briefly if the horizontal exit was a fire wall. A fire wall is more than just a “fire separation wall,” it has to remain standing if construction on one side of the wall collapses during fire, the fire wall also goes from the foundation to or through the roof. A fire wall divides a building into smaller “buildings” for purposes of determining allowable area, height, and number of stories and the extent of construction type. Maybe your client doesn’t want to build a Type I or Type II building but you have a very large area. So you split your building up with fire walls so each part is within the limits of Type IIIB (or whatever.) Having a fire wall does not mean it is is also a horizontal exit - for example, maybe you don’t have the refuge area.

My boss and a senior coworker said that I need a hose connection next to the "horizontal exit" previous I show. I copied the horizontal exit from their old drawing. According to your explanation, I don't need the hose connection since that is not a horizontal exit. Am I right? Thank you very much!
By the way, your previous explanation is very clear.

 

[redeyedfly]

You need two AMOE's, continuous to the public way. The elevator might work as an AMOE provided it has standby power, but if 4 stories it is not required to be one of them. If a stair needs to be an AMOE it will need an area of refuge or an exterior area for assisted rescue. The ADA and ANSI/ICC folks prefer an exterior area for assisted rescue over an area of refuge, but either is approved. It looks like you might have a horizontal exit, which can also be used but only for the first floor, which you don't appear to need.

AOR is not require in R-2. EAAR is only required if the steps are outside the exit discharge; the accessible route needs only go from the exit discharge to the public way or a safe dispersal area.

 

[redeyedfly]

Hi,
I post this before but still not clear. Please see the first floor plan.

This is a 4 story type 5 building. The building is separated to two areas, building A and B. Building A has two accessible exits directly to exit ground. But the top exit has to go down half floor in the stair to ground level. I think this exit also need to be accessible from the first floor to ground level.
The right side stair in building B also needs to go down half story to ground exit. I want to use the elevator nearby to make this exit accessible.

Please let me know if I have to make the top stair accessible to ground level? Thanks!

i think you need to re-read 1009. Stairs are part of the AMOE. You need an AMOE from every level, not just the exit discharge level. As drawn your plan looks correct. It's actually MORE difficult to add another exit with steps on the exterior, see my post above.

 

[walker.t]

According to your explanation, I don't need the hose connection since that is not a horizontal exit. Am I right?

Yes, I believe you are correct. You don’t need a horizontal exit because you can reach the exit doors at the front of the building within your allowable travel distance. But if you call out a horizontal exit on your drawings (whether or not you need it) then any requirements associated with a horizontal exit have to be provided, such as standpipes per 1026.5.

My boss and a senior coworker said that I need a hose connection next to the "horizontal exit" previous I show. I copied the horizontal exit from their old drawing.

You said you copied the horizontal exit from their old drawing, I wonder why they thought it needed a horizontal exit.

By the way, your previous explanation is very clear.

Thank you.