Does a patio area need to be part of the occupant load calc?

[texasbo]

Only if the OL of the fire area exceeds 100. My thoughts are this has 2 fire areas. 1 inside and 1 outside. The exterior wall does not have to meet the requirements of a fire barrier to comply with the fire area definition (see 706.6) it only has to meet the construction requirements of 704. therfore the OL in either fire area does not exceed 100 no sprinklers required

I agree with you that an exterior wall defines a fire area, but is a wall that is built inside a building an exterior wall? If I have a 10,000 sf roofed, open sided structure, and I build a wall right down the middle of it, is that an exterior wall? If this building was adjacent to a property line, and the roof of the patio was right on the property line, wouldn't you call the patio for lack of opening protection?

I think it's easy to visualize a building with a little 6' wide canopy and ignore the canopy. But what about when the roofed but open sided dining area is as large as the enclosed portion?

 

[north star]

@ @ @

While it may not change the calculated OL, it would change the actual OL.

Again, who is going to enforce the OL maximum? Certainly not the

business owner... Do Fire Depts. make impromptu visits, at irregular hours

to verify?



@ @ @

 

[SCBO1]

north star,

I'm told the state fire marshal enforces this, but not clear how often or when, maybe after a complaint? I provide the OC and ask that it be posted near the main door entry as per code 1004.3 for all A-Groups. The local Fire District said the BO was to enforce it when a local bar had too many patrons, not sure they know who enforces it either.

pc1

 

[mtlogcabin]

I see the 2009 IBC is not applicable in this situation, but if it were, see the new definition of fire area.FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers, exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above. [F]

This is the same as a building area definition. All they did was change the word building to fire and added it to the fire area definition which directly contradicts the allowable use of exterior walls as defining a fire area

Back to the 2006

If I have a 10,000 sf roofed, open sided structure, and I build a wall right down the middle of it, is that an exterior wall?

No

EXTERIOR WALL. A wall, bearing or nonbearing, that is used as an enclosing wall for a building, other than a fire wall, and that has a slope of 60 degrees (1.05 rad) or greater with the horizontal plane.

 

[Simonsays]

I too side with the FIRE AREA group. Look at how the code determines when a fire alarm is required. For that system, the triggering criteria is just occupant load.

 

[hlfireinspector]

I will not say where I got this!!!!!!!!!!! I know it is not the code.

1004.8 Outdoor areas. Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor

areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants

shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter.

The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned

by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use.

Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the

occupants of the building, and the path of egress travel from the

outdoor areas passes through the building, means of egress

requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the

occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

​

Exceptions:

​

1. Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the

building need only have one means of egress.

2. Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and

individual dwelling units of Group R-2.

​

This section addresses the means of egress of outdoor

​

areas such as yards, patios and courts. The primary

primary

concern is for those outdoor areas used for functions

that may include occupants other than the building

occupants, or solely by the building occupants

where egress from the outdoor area is back through

the building to reach the exit discharge. An example is

an interior court of an office building where assembly

functions are held during normal business hours for

persons other than the building occupants. When

court occupants must egress from the interior court

back through the building, the building’s egress system

is to be designed for the building occupants, plus

the assembly occupants from the interior court. Another

example would be an outdoor dining area that

exited back through the restaurant.

The occupant load is to be assigned by the building

official based on use. It is suggested that the design

occupant load be determined in accordance with Section

1004.1.1.

​

The exceptions describe conditions where the combination

​

of occupant loads is not a concern.



1004.1.1 Areas without fixed seating.

The design occupant load is also utilized for other

code requirements, such as determining the required

​

plumbing fixture count (see commentary, Chapter 29)

and other building requirements, including automatic

sprinkler systems and fire alarm and detection systems

​

But then comes this:

Some occupancies may not typically contain

an occupant load totally consistent with the occupant

load density factors of Table 1004.1.2. The exception

is intended to address the limited circumstances

where the actual occupant load is less than the calculated

occupant load. Previously, designing for a reduced

occupant load was permitted only through the

variance process. With this exception, the building official

can make a determination if a design that would

use the actual occupant load was permissible. The

building official may want to create specific conditions

for approval. For example, the building official could

permit the actual occupant load to be utilized to determine

the plumbing fixture count, but not the means of

egress or sprinkler design; the determination could be

that the reduced occupant load may be utilized in a

specific area, such as in the storage warehouse, but

​

not in the factory or office areas.

 

[hlfireinspector]

I will not say where I got this!!!!!!!!!!! I know it is not the code.

​

1004.8 Outdoor areas.

Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor




areas accessible to and usable by the building occupants

shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter.

The occupant load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned

by the building official in accordance with the anticipated use.

Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the

occupants of the building, and the path of egress travel from the

outdoor areas passes through the building, means of egress

requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the

occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

Exceptions:

1. Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the

building need only have one means of egress.

2. Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and

individual dwelling units of Group R-2.

This section addresses the means of egress of outdoor

​

areas such as yards, patios and courts. The primary

primary

concern is for those outdoor areas used for functions

that may include occupants other than the building

occupants, or solely by the building occupants

where egress from the outdoor area is back through

the building to reach the exit discharge. An example is

an interior court of an office building where assembly

functions are held during normal business hours for

persons other than the building occupants. When

court occupants must egress from the interior court

back through the building, the building’s egress system

is to be designed for the building occupants, plus

the assembly occupants from the interior court. Another

example would be an outdoor dining area that

exited back through the restaurant.

The occupant load is to be assigned by the building

official based on use. It is suggested that the design

occupant load be determined in accordance with Section

1004.1.1.

The exceptions describe conditions where the combination

​

of occupant loads is not a concern.



1004.1.1 Areas without fixed seating.

The design occupant load is also utilized for other

code requirements, such as determining the required

​

plumbing fixture count (see commentary, Chapter 29)

and other building requirements, including automatic

sprinkler systems and fire alarm and detection systems

​

But then comes this:

Some occupancies may not typically contain

an occupant load totally consistent with the occupant

load density factors of Table 1004.1.2. The exception

is intended to address the limited circumstances

where the actual occupant load is less than the calculated

occupant load. Previously, designing for a reduced

occupant load was permitted only through the

variance process. With this exception, the building official

can make a determination if a design that would

use the actual occupant load was permissible. The

building official may want to create specific conditions

for approval. For example, the building official could

permit the actual occupant load to be utilized to determine

the plumbing fixture count, but not the means of

egress or sprinkler design; the determination could be

that the reduced occupant load may be utilized in a

specific area, such as in the storage warehouse, but

​

not in the factory or office areas.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Patio occupants do not have to exit back through the restaurant in this case but most of the time do

The answer is based upon the information provided. The patio area does not exit thru the building therefore there is no increase in the original OL.

 

[hlfireinspector]

I agree. I have quite a few of these that exit back into the building and have railing around them that prevent escaping from the tab. I even have outdoor band stand with dance floor and BO allowed port-a-john for facilities but is fenced with 6 foot fence and who knows who has key to lock on gate this week. Don't like it but had to eat it. They even do outside grilling on huge gas grill. When first built I found sink drain plumbed to local ditch. Titki bar built without permits and permited after fact.

 

[peach]

How nice.. a porta john near a dancing deck and eating facilities. However, if it has the correct number of fixtures and the appropriate exits for the patio area (without having to exit back thru the building), and assuming the required exits for the rest of the building don't involve going thru the patio, it probably meets the intent of the code.

 

[SCBO1]

peach,

As your #33 post states, this is the plan except for the porta john. Exits and the interior facilities will accommodate the patio patrons one at a time of coarse and not exceed the OL.

pc1