Drilling buckets for additional fasteners

[chris kennedy]

Yesterday I saw the GC drilling holes in a Simpson bucket. I asked what he was doing and he told me the architect (not engineer) speced 18 2¾" tapcons in the back. The bucket came with 12 holes.

I tried to get a pic but the GC didn't want to be in it, he wasn't happy about drilling it out either. Below is a pic of additional holes drilled in the side for more nails I took today.

Is this Kosher???

 

[ICE]

Chris,

Strictly speaking, drilling holes in Simpson hardware isn't allowed.

In this case, the hanger is not doing much in the way of support and is all about securing the post and beam to the building.

12 nails is probably overkill.

Adding three more per side would not be a big deal as long as the nails are offset and the wood isn't split.

The lumber is not sitting in either the red iron bucket or the hanger.

The framing above is secured to the building so the only loading is the facade on the outboard beam.

In reality, the the red iron return bucket, Simpson hanger and the lumber are overbuilt.

A little more engineering could have eliminated the posts and beam so apparently they exist for the aesthetics.

PS: Don't tell anybody that I said this. An inspector shouldn't have these thoughts.

 

[chris kennedy]

Chris,Strictly speaking, drilling holes in Simpson hardware isn't allowed.

Thanks TL, would you have an idea what chapter in the IBC addresses this?

In this case, the hanger is not doing much in the way of support and is all about securing the post and beam to the building.12 tapcons is probably overkill.

Adding three more per side would not be a big deal as long as the screws are offset and the wood isn't split.

The lumber is not sitting in either the red iron bucket or the hanger.

The framing above is secured to the building so the only loading is the facade on the outboard beam.

In reality, the the red iron return bucket, Simpson hanger and the lumber are overbuilt.

A little more engineering could have eliminated the posts and beam.

Basically this rig isn't even supporting the facade. Its for securing the drive-through windows, a detail missed on the approved set of plans.

 

[ICE]

I did a search for the word "listing" in both volumes of the IBC but could not find where it is stated that everything must be used per it's listing. I'm sure that it's there in the code somewhere.

 

[Frank]

Approval can be based on listing OR upon the reccommendation of the RDP. An RDP can modify listed products or design for fabrication.

 

[ICE]

Frank,

A RDP has a lot of juice but I have never seen Simpson light gage hangers drilled at the behest of a RDP.

I thought that only an inspector could allow that. :devil

Live and learn.

Not that I doubt you at all but I would like to find this topic in the code.

Can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Frank]

from VA administrative provisions--your state may vary

112.3 Documentation and approval. In determining whether any material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction complies with this code, the building official shall approve items listed by nationally recognized testing laboratories (NRTL), when such items are listed for the intended use and application, and in addition, may consider the recommendations of RDPs.

 

[ICE]

Thanks for that but I am restricted to the IBC and IRC.

There was a RDP behind these hardware applications.

112.3 Documentation and approval. In determining whether any material, equipment, device, assembly or method ofconstruction complies with this code, the building official shall approve items listed by nationally recognized testing

laboratories (NRTL), when such items are listed for the intended use and application, and in addition, may consider the

recommendations of RDPs.

I don't see where it says that a RDP can alter a listed product.

I do see where it says that a RDP can use a listed product in a manner that's not specifically included in the listing.

And then it is decided by the building official.

 

[pete_t]

http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/installer.html

General Instructions for the Installer

These general instructions for the installer are provided to ensure proper

selection and installation of Simpson Strong-Tie Company Inc. products and

must be followed carefully. These general instructions are in addition to the

specific installation instructions and notes provided for each particular product,

all of which should be consulted prior to and during installation of Simpson

Strong-Tie Company Inc. products

e. Do not add fastener holes or otherwise modify Simpson Strong-Tie Company Inc. products. The performance of modified products may be substantially weakened. Simpson Strong-Tie will not warrant or guarantee the performance of such modified products.

 

[Msradell]

Another question, are Tapcons even allowed to be used into wood? I've only seen them used attaching to concrete.

 

[ICE]

Another question, are Tapcons even allowed to be used into wood? I've only seen them used attaching to concrete.

You do ask some good questions.........for a girl....oh heck....even for a guy....it's a good thing that the hanger isn't doing anything.

 

[chris kennedy]

Another question, are Tapcons even allowed to be used into wood? I've only seen them used attaching to concrete.

The back of the bucket pictured is tapconed to the CMU, nails will be used in the holes you see on the side.

 

[Frank]

Is it any different the engineer saying drill here on Joe's model xxx hanger and use such and such fasteners as oppossed to drill holes per pattern in xx guage galvanized sheet steel and fold into this shape?

Joe's hangers no longer warrent it in that the engineer has taken responsiblity for the re-engineered product.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

A while back I failed an inspection and provided the GC with this bulletin: http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-HANGERGAPS10.pdf then the RDP called and rightfully admonished me as he was responsible for the design, not the manufacturer of the product.

All is well; I thanked him for setting me on the right path and he thanked me for catching the error.

Francis

 

[Phil]

There may be a bigger problem with the Tapcon spacing. I have only seen Tapcons used in concrete or CMU. The photo looks like brick or brick veneer. The ICC report for Tapcons require a 1-1/2" spacing for 3/16" screws and 2" for 1/4" screws into CMU. Also, the screws should be 1" away from mortar joints. http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-1671.pdf. The RDP could be accepting the liability for the connection. I can't condemn the detail, we don't have all of the details (loads, dimensions, brick or CMU, etcetera). But I have my doubts.