Egress Problem

[LGreene]

Someone called me today to tell me about a "situation." It's a 4-story parking garage with no overhead door so anyone can walk in at the bottom. The doors leading from the parking garage to the stair on each level have panic hardware. The panic hardware has been modified so pushing the touchpad doesn't retract the latch. The touchpad doesn't move when you push on it, and the door remains locked on the egress side until you swipe a card in the card reader and then an electric strike releases the latch.

The doors are required egress doors and this application clearly does not meet the code requirements. You can not exit unless you swipe your card. The electric strike releases upon fire alarm, which is not code-compliant if these are fire doors. These are not delayed egress devices which allow egress after 15 seconds, they are regular panic devices that someone has modified so the touchpad doesn't move.

The facility manager is aware that the doors don't meet the egress requirements and he wants to keep them that way. It's an office building for a government agency, where the employees are at risk of being targeted by unhappy "customers," so this is how the facility is trying to protect their employees - by preventing access from the garage to the office building.

I have worked on many facilities, including courthouses which have similar risks to the people who work there. But I have always been able to specify hardware that meets code requirements and provides security. Typically when I tell a facility that what they've done is not code-compliant, they change it. I have not met with this facility manager but it sounds like he's not interested in hearing about other solutions. What they have is working just fine for him.

On top of everything else, he said that the fire marshal was just there and said everything was fine. Is that possible? What can I say to convince this guy that he needs to fix the hardware? I'm not a code official, I'm a hardware consultant.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Egress Problem

Is it an open parking garage? If it is open, the hazard is greatly reduced, even though it would still not meet code. How did you get involved in this if the building manager wants to leave it the way it is and the fire marshal does not object?

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: Egress Problem

Preventing access into the stairs in one thing - put a card swipe in, who cares - but preventing egress from the stairs is a whole different game. The building isn't right. There has been an alteration to the egress system without a permit.

Oh, and could the fire marshal miss this? Is he human?

My guess is that he looked and saw the panic bars, thinking everything was OK.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: Egress Problem

If I understand this correctly the stairs are providing egress for the parking structure and the building.

Remove the card reader from the parking lot doors leading to the stairway and install them on the stair side leading into each floor of the building.

The building remains secure at all times.

Many buildings once you enter the stairwell you cannot re-enter on another floor you have to go all the way down to get out.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Egress Problem

The problem with that approach is that employees are often encouraged to use the stairs to get between floors in lieu of the elevator. You do not want your employees to meet the "bad guy" inside the stairs because he could enter from the parking level.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Egress Problem

As a government facility, are you sure it fall under the local building code official's jurisdiction?

I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that there isn't anything regulating it.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: Egress Problem

The "bad guy" could meet anybody in the parking structure take the card and swipe the door and be in. The whole thing for security has not been thought out very well when the parking structure is not secured.

It is similar to the "lock down" requirements at schools. The one here was going to lock children INTO certain rooms and areas. Check what your local school system may have done. It just may scare you enough to not let your children go to a school.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Egress Problem

There certainly are a lot of conflicting goals out in the real world. My favorite was on a project I did years ago where a federal judge would not allow life safety improvements to the courthouse because it would ruin the historic fabric nature of the building

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: Egress Problem

There certainly are a lot of conflicting goals out in the real world. My favorite was on a project I did years ago where a federal judge would not allow life safety improvements to the courthouse because it would ruin the historic fabric nature of the building

Darn those old fabric-made couthouses!

:lol:

 

[LGreene]

Re: Egress Problem

Let's see if I can answer everyone's questions...

Is it an open parking garage? If it is open, the hazard is greatly reduced, even though it would still not meet code. How did you get involved in this if the building manager wants to leave it the way it is and the fire marshal does not object?

It's open in that there's no door where cars enter - just an opening. The upper floors are enclosed. I am only involved because this agency is building another facility, and wanted the hardware supplier to supply panics that don't unlatch when you press the touchpad (!), and when the hardware supplier balked, the facility manager took him out to see the existing ones. I got the call from the hardware supplier and one of my coworkers because they knew I would freak out. I don't believe that the fire marshal doesn't object. Either he didn't notice that the devices aren't operable, or the facility manager was BS-ing. JMHO.

Preventing access into the stairs in one thing - put a card swipe in, who cares - but preventing egress from the stairs is a whole different game. The building isn't right. There has been an alteration to the egress system without a permit. Oh, and could the fire marshal miss this? Is he human? My guess is that he looked and saw the panic bars, thinking everything was OK.

If you can't go from the parking garage to the stairs, the only way out of the building is down the ramp. That's quite a distance if you start at the 4th floor and go around and around on foot. I can understand how the fire marshal might miss the fact that the devices don't operate...what I was asking was whether it's possible that a fire marshal would know that they don't work and let it slide. In my experience, no.

Remove the card reader from the parking lot doors leading to the stairway and install them on the stair side leading into each floor of the building. The building remains secure at all times. Many buildings once you enter the stairwell you cannot re-enter on another floor you have to go all the way down to get out.

Coug Dad answered this one. If the bad guy has free access into the stairs, he can hang out and wait for his victim. I guess he could wait for his victim in the parking garage too, but in most applications like this they try to keep the bad guy out of the stair and we usually use a delayed egress exit device for that.

As a government facility, are you sure it fall under the local building code official's jurisdiction?

I've written hardware specs for lots of government jobs and it always amazes me that certain entities who will remain nameless pick and choose which codes they want to follow, but I don't know of any code that allows someone to disable panic hardware or use the driving lane of the parking garage as the only means of egress.

As always, thanks for your input and if you think of any ways for me to encourage this facility to fix their doors, let me know.

 

[cda]

Re: Egress Problem

On top of everything else, he said that the fire marshal was just there and said everything was fine. Is that possible

1. if you do not know the code you cannot enforce it, and he thinks it is cod compliant

or.

2. he decided it is some type of gov. facility and they do not need to complly

they could use some fancy von duprin stuff that lets you exit, but sounds an alarm somewhere if you do not do the card swipe at the door!!!

as far as letting you into the stairwell that can be a ahj thing do do or not

 

[peach]

Re: Egress Problem

If the latches are released upon fire alarm activation, what's the problem?

The mag locks I've encountered release immediatly.. the bad guy will be swept up in the flood of people out of the building.

As long as you can get out of the building at the level of discharge, I don't see an issue. Requiring people to enter the building at controlled points is a separate issue.

In an emergency, you won't exit into the parking garage, anyway... you'll leave at the level of discharge, which should be clearly marked.

 

[cda]

Re: Egress Problem

Peach what if it is a requried exit????

If the latches are released upon fire alarm activation, what's the problem? man chasing me with big gun, "hold on please I need to activate the fire alarm, so I can get out of this door five feet from me""", or wait will you please chase me down to the level of discharge.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Egress Problem

Peach what if it is a requried exit????If the latches are released upon fire alarm activation, what's the problem? man chasing me with big gun, "hold on please I need to activate the fire alarm, so I can get out of this door five feet from me""", or wait will you please chase me down to the level of discharge.

That's not a scenario the life safety codes are designed to address...unfortunately "the ick" loves to include provisions for that sort of far fetched non-sense.

 

[cda]

Re: Egress Problem

brudgers

I was trying to get at is it a required exit??? If so the the book applies

 

[LGreene]

Re: Egress Problem

If the latches are released upon fire alarm activation, what's the problem?The mag locks I've encountered release immediatly.. the bad guy will be swept up in the flood of people out of the building.

As long as you can get out of the building at the level of discharge, I don't see an issue. Requiring people to enter the building at controlled points is a separate issue.

In an emergency, you won't exit into the parking garage, anyway... you'll leave at the level of discharge, which should be clearly marked.

It is a required exit from the parking garage. It's the only exit from each floor other than going down the vehicle ramp.

These doors don't have mag-locks, but even with mag-locks, it's not acceptable to release only upon fire alarm. Mag-locks require a motion sensor to release them, a push button release beside the door, and they have to release on fire alarm and power failure. And if these are fire doors, a fail safe electric strike isn't allowed because an electric strike on a fire door has to be fail secure.

In my opinion, if it's a required egress door all they can do to restrict access from the parking garage to the stairs is to use delayed egress hardware (15-second delay + alarm) or an alarm.

- Lori

 

[brudgers]

Re: Egress Problem

brudgers I was trying to get at is it a required exit??? If so the the book applies

If it's a government facility, not necessarily.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: Egress Problem

If it's a government facility, not necessarily

Only if it is a government owned facility,

 

[JBI]

Re: Egress Problem

I can't speak for other State and Local Governments, but NYS and all of its' political subdivisions are required to comply with the Code, by law.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: Egress Problem

Buildings owned or leased by the federal government are required to comply with the Federal Fire Safety Act and PBS P-100 which adopts NFPA 101, the Life Safety Code. Now, who enforces the requirements is open to discussion.

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: Egress Problem

Buildings owned or leased by the federal government are required to comply with the Federal Fire Safety Act and PBS P-100 which adopts NFPA 101, the Life Safety Code. Now, who enforces the requirements is open to discussion.

In theory, the GSA enforces the federally adopted codes. We've done numerous third party reviews and surveys for them. They also try to apply the locally adopted codes wherever possible.

Even under the LSC the does must be openable from the inside - in the direction of egress. The GSA does allow for certain security modifications for courthouses and detention facilities but not for typical buildings.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Egress Problem

I can't speak for other State and Local Governments, but NYS and all of its' political subdivisions are required to comply with the Code, by law.

They may be required to comply with code...indeed nearly all government buildings are subject to a code of some sort.

However, the body authorized to enforce the code is probably not the local building department.

 

[JBI]

Re: Egress Problem

That is correct. Each municipal subdivision has its' own Code Official(s). A Town that owns a building witihn an incorporated Village has jurisdiction of its' own building, and vice-versa. A County owned building is regulated by County personnel. Not terribly efficient, I know.