Elevated Dining Areas

[Glennman CBO]

2006 IBC 1104.4 and 1108.2.8

The exception under 1108.2.8 appears to allow elevated dining areas under 3000 sq ft to be unaccessible (per 1104.4 exception 1) as long as the same level of service is provided in the accessible areas, with the exception of mezzanines that are over 25% of the total area of the accessible levels. Am I reading this right?

"In buildings or facilities not required to provide an accessible route between levels...". I would take this as referring to 3000 sq ft or less levels that are allowed to not have an accessible route to them per 1104.4.

It appears that exception #1 to 1108.2.8 removes only the mezzenine portion of the exception under 1104.4, and therefore still allows the other levels of inaccessibility under 3000 sq ft. as long as these are not mezzaanines (?).

Thoughts?

 

[Forest]

I think it that the answer would hinge on your definition of a mezzanine.Looking at section 505 it talks about a clear height above and below the mezzanine.This would determine if it is a mezzanine or a raised floor.

 

[Glennman CBO]

Let me rephrase...

Are elevated dining areas under 3000 sq ft allowed to be unaccessible with the exception of mezzanines that exceed 25% of the total dining areas?

 

[Gene Boecker]

Yes, as long as multiple story access is not required by some other provision and the services afforded on the elevated areas are also avaialable on the main level. Point being, if you already have an elevator because it's requried by some other provision to make another upper story accessible, make a stop on the elevated levels. The mezzanine exception is accurate; although not always appreciated.

 

[Glennman CBO]

I'm looking more at elevated dining areas that are maybe 1 or 2 risers higher or lower than the rest of the space, but having equal services.

It would appear that according to the 2009 commentary, this would not be allowed (we just got the commentaries in today). I know that the commentary is only opinion, but some cannot make up their mind, until they find it in there (too bad).

 

[brudgers]

I'm looking more at elevated dining areas that are maybe 1 or 2 risers higher or lower than the rest of the space, but having equal services.It would appear that according to the 2009 commentary, this would not be allowed (we just got the commentaries in today). I know that the commentary is only opinion, but some cannot make up their mind, until they find it in there (too bad).

Just claim that the elevated area is for security..."to protect patrons from wheelchair gangs" or something like that...and it will meet the IBC.

 

[Gene Boecker]

Just claim that the elevated area is for security..."to protect patrons from wheelchair gangs" or something like that...and it will meet the IBC.

Happy Friday, brudgers!

I have to tell you that is the funniest thing I've ever heard you say.

 

[Gene Boecker]

I'm looking more at elevated dining areas that are maybe 1 or 2 risers higher or lower than the rest of the space, but having equal services.It would appear that according to the 2009 commentary, this would not be allowed (we just got the commentaries in today). I know that the commentary is only opinion, but some cannot make up their mind, until they find it in there (too bad).

Yeh, THAT is not really a mezzanine at all. It would be quite a stretch to use the mezzanine section for that application - and it certainly isn't a story. Unless you want to start the discussion over with the phrase "once upon a time."

 

[Glennman CBO]

Gene,

I understand that those other levels are not mezzanines. However, the statement prior to the exception in 1108.2.8 states that "the total floor area allotted for seating and tables shall be accessible". Does this include those areas that do not require an accessible route per 1104.4, with the exception applying only to mezzanines over 25%?

In other words, if 1104.4 allows under 3000 sq ft to be non accessible, does this only apply if you do not have dining areas in those under 3000 sq ft areas?

Brudgers...I love that!

 

[brudgers]

ADAAG allows any level with 3000 square feet.

IBC allows an aggregate of 3000 square feet of stories + mezzanines.

However, the security exemption does not appear to count against your IBC total.

 

[mtlogcabin]

What you describe is not a story or a mezzanine. I believe if you can meet 1108.2.8.1 you will satisfy the intent.

1108.2.8.1 Dining surfaces.

Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the seating and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility.

STORY. That portion of a building included between the upper surface of a floor and the upper surface of the floor or roof next above (also see “Mezzanine” and Section 502.1). It is measured as the vertical distance from top to top of two successive tiers of beams or finished floor surfaces and, for the topmost story, from the top of the floor finish to the top of the ceiling joists or, where there is not a ceiling, to the top of the roof rafters.

MEZZANINE. An intermediate level or levels between the floor and ceiling of any story and in accordance with Section 505.

505.1 General.

A mezzanine or mezzanines in compliance with Section 505 shall be considered a portion of the story below. ..... The clear height above and below the mezzanine floor construction shall not be less than 7 feet (2134 mm).

 

[Forest]

I agree w/mtlogcabin 1108.2.8.1 is the section that applies.

 

[brudgers]

That's what is so dumb about the IBC.

It allows you to have a whole inaccessible floor for dining.

It allows you to have an inaccessible mezzanine for dining.

But prohibits a small raised area not served by a ramp.

 

[Glennman CBO]

We havn't quite hit the nail on the head.

1104.4 is the general requirement. The exceptions to the general requirements are levels 3000 sq ft or less, and more specifically, Group A levels that do not contain accessible elements, or other spaces required by 1108 are not required to be served by an accessible route from an accessible level.

1108.2.8 has the specific requirements, and the more specific requirements apply.

"In dining areas, the total floor area allotted for seating and tables shall be accessible" (specific requirement).

Exception to all dining areas being accessible is mezzanines over 25% of the dining area.

It would appear then that all dining areas that are on different floors, stories, levels, areas, elevations, whatever, except for mezzanines under 25%, need to be accessible, exclusive of 1104.4.

Does this sound correct?

 

[Glennman CBO]

It's pretty bad when I have to respond to my own post.

I believe that the statement in 1108.2.8 exception 1 "In buiildings or facilities not required to provide an accessible route between levels..." is actually referring to 1104.4.

In my last post I am playing devil's advocate. I am the only one in my department that believes that you can have non accessible levels per 1104.4 for dining areas, and that the extra provision in 1108.2.8 exception 1 is simply stating that if the mezzanine exceeds 25% of the total seating, that it must be accessible even if it is under 3000 sq ft.

 

[brudgers]

It's pretty bad when I have to respond to my own post.I believe that the statement in 1108.2.8 exception 1 "In buiildings or facilities not required to provide an accessible route between levels..." is actually referring to 1104.4.

In my last post I am playing devil's advocate. I am the only one in my department that believes that you can have non accessible levels per 1104.4 for dining areas, and that the extra provision in 1108.2.8 exception 1 is simply stating that if the mezzanine exceeds 25% of the total seating, that it must be accessible even if it is under 3000 sq ft.

In so far as your interpretation is consistent with ADAAG, I think it's reasonable.

 

[Glennman CBO]

Thanks Brudgers.