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Engineer's minimum lumber grade callout

A lot of times this substitution issue hits you right here in river city in the ol' back yard.

Deck joist hangers filled with drywall screws, deck screws, wrong nails and I've even seen electrical staples used in the joist hanger holes. Some hanger manufactures do not want these foreign fasteners in their hangers. In most case will not warrant the hanger if there's a failure. I'm not seeing hanger fasteners being prescribed for hangers being spec'ed out on plans for commercial decks. I have to go to the hanger manufactures guides for this information.

pc1
 
The problem is the contractors have no clue what nails to use, and is is difficult to tell after the fact...

The problem is illiteracy. The requirements are printed on the connector package.
After-the-fact can be (somewhat) verified by the empty fastener boxes in the sweep pile/trash container.
 
This may have been addressed but I have a question?

If you see screws being used in a joist hanger and the screw does not meet manufactures requirements (like a drywall screw) and you request that the screws be removed.

If a proper Joist Hanger nail is now installed would the nail be subject to pull out being installed in the same hole that the screw had made? Is there any testing done on this situation? I worry that the condition may be worse.
 
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This may have been addressed but I have a question?

If you see screws being used in a joist hanger and the screw does not meet manufactures requirements (like a drywall screw) and you request that the screws be removed.

If a proper Joist Hanger nail is now installed would the nail be subject to pull out being installed in the same hole that the screw had made? Is there any testing done on this situation? I worry that the condition may be worse.
Make them use common nails per the manufacturer's installation instructions.... and go a little longer if you are concerned. As far as verifying after the fact...if I wonder about the nails I ask them to pull one.
 
It was always my practice to give the field inspector ICBO Reports on all bolts and anchors whether what was being used was specified or I was using an alternative. "Or equal" is always required or manufacturers' reps will bribe architects and engineers to specify their products. If "or equal" is not specified and a brand name is required the architect or engineer better have good reason not to allow an alternative.

I think the biggest issue I see is that the designers will only pull from one catalogue. It doesn't matter what is on the shelf at the hardware store. If they were more knowledgeable about the commercial availability or the preferences of the contractor of the items they are specifying, alternatives generally wouldn't need to be evaluated.
 
Engineers cannot let the local hardware store decide what is an acceptable product. While the engineer needs to be concerned with the ability of the product this should not be a problem if one of the 3 or 4 national brands of post installed anchors, for example, was specified.

If there are real problems with availability of product the engineer will typically consider alternates. On the other hand if the contractor is lazy and cannot work with other distributers then maybe this was the wrong contractor for the project.
 
I think the biggest issue I see is that the designers will only pull from one catalogue. It doesn't matter what is on the shelf at the hardware store. If they were more knowledgeable about the commercial availability or the preferences of the contractor of the items they are specifying, alternatives generally wouldn't need to be evaluated.

T Murray:

You are 100% correct, Sweets Catalogs published what eventually became a 27 volume set of books, these were given to architects and to contractors who were doing a volume of one million dollars a year or more, small contractors received a two volume set. To get upgraded I couldn't wait until I qualified for the 27 volume set. Go into any architect's office and you could see them specifying from the ubiquitous green books, they were free to the industry because manufacturers paid to get their literature into the volumes and all had recommended specifications that the architect could copy and place into their specifications.

A good example of manipulating the system was Simpson, in the 50s we had nothing but Teco clips that were the equivalent of the Simpson L90, Barclay Simpson took his window screen business and started creating not only simple clips but joist hangers and eventually the full product line we have today. Many cheaper competitors sprung up, the biggest one was Silver around here, today Teco and Silver no longer exist and Simpson dominates the industry, they didn't just submit literature and pay Sweets, they did great engineering, created great catalogs, and started distributing them to all lumber yards as well as architects.

BTW, I'll have to research it but there are laws requiring architects to specify "or equal", I don't remember whether they just apply to public projects or all construction projects, or whether they are just California laws.
 
I'm full of stories on this thread, Story #2. Contractor at the window with deck permit application. After a quick plan review at the window then the discussion turned to the deck ledger lateral load connection, you know that threaded rod through the ledger into the customers "weed growing room" on the other side. F... that he sez, your the only one enforcing that!
So I call my Simpson guy, What's up with this resistance to the new code, I was told, no box stores have this DTT2Z ties? He said the contractor can order them direct if he wants them......ok... The box stores don't stock the new DTT1Z either.

So the market dictates or I'm the only one enforcing the code...kinda like a handrail on a deck.

Story #3, "How bout those FPC breaker boxes?"

pc1
 
There were and possibly are laws requiring specification of multiple products on public projects but they are not always enforced. There are also exemptions.

First you must ask what is equal. This is not as easy as you may think. When competitors products are not identical specifying multiple products could require spending more time showing the corresponding changes to various details resulting in more cost to design than the contractor saves by buying another product.
 
Mark:

About 10 years ago I had an architect specify a Simpson stainless steel post cap, there were 10 of them, nobody had them so I contacted Simpson, they had to custom fabricate them and wanted $750 each for them. Shouldn't architects know what things cost before they specify them?

BTW, the owner does pay, in almost all upper class housing the work is done on a cost + fee arrangement, nobody knows what changes are going to be made, fixed price contracts are riddled with change orders. Look at government contracts, cost overruns are known to run way over estimates.

Kamine Law said:
The “or-equal” requirement has been California law since at least 1961 when former Gov. Code § 4380 was added. The current statute is Public Contract Code § 3400 (almost identical language also appears in the State Contract Act, Public Contract Code § 10129). It prohibits any public works contract from limiting “the bidding, directly or indirectly, to any one specific concern, or … calling for a designated material, product, thing, or service by specific brand or trade name unless the specification is followed by the words ‘or equal’ so that bidders may furnish any equal material, product, thing, or service.” The requirement is applicable to every “agency of the state … political subdivision, municipal corporation, or district … [and] to any public officer or person charged with the letting of contracts for the construction, alteration, or repair of public works.”

The requirement has been incorporated into the two most widely used standard public works contracts, Caltrans’ Standard Specifications (California Department of Transportation, 1999) section 6-1.05, and Standard Specifications for Public Works Construction (BNi Publications, Inc., 2003) section 4-1.6.

The goals of the “or-equal” requirement are “to widen the area of competition, and to bar local procurement officials from choosing a particular source either out of favoritism or because of an honest preference.” Jack Stone Co. v. United States, 344 F.2d 370, 373-74 (Ct. Cl.1965). These goals are essentially the same as the reasons for requiring competitive bidding: “to guard against favoritism, improvidence, extravagance, fraud and corruption; to prevent the waste of public funds; and to obtain the best economic result for the public.” Graydon v. Pasadena Redevelopment Agency, 104 CA 3d 631, 636 (1980).

When these goals cannot be achieved, courts will not enforce the competitive bidding or “or-equal” requirement. In these situations, an agency may specify a particular product or a “sole source.”

Public Contract Code § 3400(b) now spells out those situations. The statute allows sole sourcing for four reasons: (1) to conduct a field test or experiment of the product, (2) to match existing products in use on the particular public work, (3) to obtain a product that is only available from one source, and (4) to respond to an emergency.

However, before an agency can resort to sole sourcing for one of these reasons, the awarding authority or its designee (e.g., the city engineer) must make a finding that one of the four reasons applies. Further, that finding must be described in the invitation for bids or request for proposals.¹

¹ http://kamineconstructionlaw.com/publications-and-articles/california-or-equal-requirements/
 
I'm full of stories on this thread, Story #2. Contractor at the window with deck permit application. After a quick plan review at the window then the discussion turned to the deck ledger lateral load connection, you know that threaded rod through the ledger into the customers "weed growing room" on the other side. F... that he sez, your the only one enforcing that!
So I call my Simpson guy, What's up with this resistance to the new code, I was told, no box stores have this DTT2Z ties? He said the contractor can order them direct if he wants them......ok... The box stores don't stock the new DTT1Z either.

So the market dictates or I'm the only one enforcing the code...kinda like a handrail on a deck.

pc1
Those are NOT required by code! They are a suggestion!
Michigan deleted the figure from the 2015 code because too many people were "reading" the picture and not the text.

2009 IRC
R502.2.2.3 Deck lateral load connection. The lateral load
connection required by Section R502.2.2 shall be permitted
to be in accordance with Figure R502.2.2.3. Hold-down tension
devices shall be installed in not less than two locations
per deck, and each device shall have an allowable stress
design capacity of not less than 1500 pounds (6672 N).

FWIW, a 1/4-20, grade 2 bolt, has a design capacity over 2000 pounds in tension.

From summer 2013 issue of Wood Design Focus from the Forest Products Society.

Tests from Dr. Bender, Dr. Woeste and their peers reveal the truth. Properly connected ledgers with lag screws resisted four times the lateral load that could be generated by humans and they stopped the test because the joists ripped down their center. Here's some quotes for you.

"Deck ledgers were attached with 0.5-inch diameter lag screws in a staggered pattern as specified in IRC Table R502.2.2.1. The research basis for the IRC provisions was Carradine et al. (2007;; 2008). The deck ledger-to-house attachment appeared to be adequate for the conditions studied. When no tension hold-down connectors were used, the outer two lag screws carried most of the withdrawal load with no visible signs of failure (Figure 6)."

"These results point to the effectiveness of 0.5-in diameter lag screws when selected and installed per the IRC deck ledger connection provisions in Table R502.2.2.1 (ICC 2009b)*."

*Table R507.2 (ICC 2012)

Ledger Connection Testing by Virginia State.

The same researcher that conducted the ledger connection tests that were the basis of the ledger fastening table in the 2009 IRC performed this research. Two 12 x 12 decks were constructed identically with perpendicular decking. One deck had lateral hold down anchors installed, the other did not. The decks were fastened with a strut along the center of the 12 ft. joists spans to simulate the resultant location of a uniformly loaded deck. The decks were pulled laterally at this midpoint to a displacement of 17 inches, far greater than anything the occupants in the previously described test could generate. The following text from the research report describes the damage observed by these large loads.


“In both tests, splitting of the top edges of the deck joists was the main source of damage, and was caused by the couple from the deck screws that induced stresses perpendicular to the grain. Splitting propagated along the longitudinal axis of the wood. Each deck joist completely split, to the depth of screw penetration, from the load drag strut to the ledger board. Significant yielding and fracture of deck board screws was also observed in this region. Minimal joist splitting and screw yielding was seen in the region from the load drag strut to the outer deck beam. In both tests, no damage was observed in the deck ledger to house rim board connection. A maximum separation of 0.1 inches when hold-downs were used and 0.15 inches when hold-downs were not used was recorded between the deck ledger and diaphragm rim board at the tension chord of the deck. No damage was observed in the simulated house diaphragm.”
 
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rogerpa,
excellent points!, the word shall is all over that section R507, "shall be positively anchored", "shall be designed and constructed", "shall be placed in accordance", "shall be supported" and so on. R507.2.3 sez: shall be permitted.

IT'S NOT mandatory.

I should have said if I was enforcing that part of the code I would have be the only one doing so.

pc1
 
Besides only applying to public contracts the California Public Contract Code in many cases does not apply to Charter Cities since the matter could be considered a municipal affair. There is also an exemption in the following paragraph of the PCCC that allows only one product to be specified when there is no equal.

And while arguably I may not have always adhered to the letter of the PCC does it benefit the owner when I design for multiple products thus spending more on design fees than possibly saved by using another product?

There is case law in California that states that "Competitive bidding laws are passed for the benefit and protection of the taxpaying public, not for the benefit and enrichment of bidders"

Who decides what is equal? Unless criteria is provided to define the basis for equal then the only way to determine whether it is equal is to ask the designer. Thus stating "or equal" does not provide enough information to allow the contractor to determine whether his preferred product will be considered equal unless he gets clarification prior to bidding.

Regarding the stainless steel post caps there are situations commonly associated with certain types of exposures and the use of treated wood where the designer might be found negligent if he did not specify stainless steel or something comparable. In terms of Simpson having to custom fabricate the products my experience has been that they do this fairly rapidly.

Whether the stainless steel post caps are worth the cost is a matter for the Owner and the designer to deal with not the contractor.
 
Mark:

I don't mean to argue with you, I have the greatest respect for architects and won't build without one, but you claim that the owner should not have to pay you to research the costs before you specify, back when I did bid competitively something like 8 out of 10 projects never went up because the costs were over budget, of those that did go up a contractor was called in to "value engineer" and many items were changed by the architect in consultation with the contractor. We contractors don't bid every joist hanger and every bolt in a project, we bid by formula and we don't find out the costs of each individual item until we actually order them. If we did price out before we actually had a contract suppliers would soon stop pricing for us, we have to be known as contractors who actually have jobs to develop relationships with suppliers so they are bidding materials for a job that is actually going to go up by the contractor requesting the quote.

As a matter of fact owners get very mad at architects for designing projects that go way over budget, they have had to pay the architect for designing buildings that they never get. For this reason many owners go to the contractor they want before the architect, and ask the contractor to recommend an architect that designs buildings that are actually buildable. The last house I built the owner came to me and I recommended an architect, as the process went on the owner became very disillusioned with the architect, finally the owner asked me to take over and select another architect, we ended up asking 5 architects to submit proposals, the owner offered to pay each architect $3,000 for his proposal, after all proposals were in the owner and I sat down and reviewed them, his wife preferred one, he preferred another, I gave him my opinion as to relative costs and ability to get through the Design Review and Planning Commission and an architect was selected. I always tell my owners: "Architects do not know prices, even I don't know prices, nobody actually knows prices, even after we start prices can change."
 
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