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Existing Building Question

G

globe trekker

Registered User
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
1,739
A nationwide chain of a drive-in food service businesses ( Sonic Drive In )

in my AHJ is planning to add about 50 sq. ft. of glass vestibule area to

the front of their business; not sure why, but that is what their submitted,

stamped & sealed plans propose.

They also are planning to do a full exterior facade improvement ( i.e -

changing color schemes, adding some "new" structural steel columns &

canopies, etc. ) Essentially, a full blown "face lift" to their existing

business, to upgrade to an overall modern appearance.

QUESTION # 1: The submitted plans did not take in to account the

tables & seating area at the front of the business. How would they

account for these occupants? 10-12 seats shown on plans.

QUESTION # 2: This same business DOES have an ADA compliant

unisex restroom at the rear of their building space. It IS accessible

from the rear of the building only, however, there are no signs to

indicate that a restroom is even available to the seated customers,

or even to the drivers in their vehicles. Isn't signage "required"?

I seem to have read something in Ch. 11 or Ch. 34 of the IBC,

regarding "required" signage for an existing Accessible restroom.

"Man with pencil who draw" did not provide any ADA codes / specs.

in their submitted plans.

I am at home now and do not have access to my code library.

What say ye?

I seem to recall there being a discussion on this forum about the

seating / occupant loading requirements for these types of

businesses, but I don't remember the consensus of the forum

members.

As always, please cite any applicable code sections either way.

Thanks ya'll! :)

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Yes you need to take the seating in your restroom calcs

If there are no signs, the restroom is NOT complient. Signs are a part of ADA complience.
 
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If the DP did not dive you an occupant load...feel free to take it at worst case scenario...5 or 7sf per...if the fixture count doesn't work, let them explain why, or provide more detail...10-12 seats is probably not a big deal, unless they designed to the minimum last time!
 
steveray,

The DP DID provide an OL, but only for the ( Commercial ) Kitchen area

= 200 sq. ft. per person ( from the 2006 IBC ). They just did not

provide an OL for the seating at the outside tables. Plus, currently, there

are no signs on the property for the ADA restrooms.

Thanks for ya'lls input! :)

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They probably want you to think restrooms for the public are not required, only for employees.
 
If they are parking and eating on site.....they need to be considered.....6 people times number of parking spots? If you feed them, you need facilities for them...IMHO
 
i would think they might need more restrooms for employees and one for each sex. have the dp do the calculations and code analysis. path of travel to food and restrooms.etc.
 
My father has one under review right now in another town...first submission rejected for multiple reasons....including the ones being discussed here...
 
steveray,

What applicable sections would you reference for having the OL designed & fixture count

for the folks in their cars? Also, where did you get the "6 people times the number

of parking spots" from? Please help me to get from Ch. 34 of the `06 IBC to where

you are citing from.

This IS an exisiting building. :eek:

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IPC 403.4.1 Directional signage. indicating the route to public facilities shall be posted.......shall be located in a corridor or aisle, at the entrance to the facilities for customers and visitors.

Not sure if you must post this sign if you don't have a corridor or aisle at the entrance.

IBC 1102 definiton of facility; All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular routes located on a site.

What the heck does this mean? A restroom?

E107.2 signs must be tactile.
 
Is it an existing Sonic? If it was....ok.....if it is a conversion (from a non drive in) and being used in a different way..I think I could make that arguement...

Ok...read the op again....not in this situation.....new construction yes....change of usage...yes.....not small remodel....Sorry for the confusion....The 6 people thing would come from the DP giving me no info, and when that happens, I assume the worst...6 per car, full lot...
 
steveray,

The section that I was / am looking for, ...for support is Section 3409.2 in the `06 IBC.

Section 3409.2 Maintenance of facilities.

"A building, facility or element that is constructed or altered to be accessible shall be

maintained accessible during occupancy."

Thanks for assisting me in researching the codes further. :D

Where are you obtaining the "6 people per car" thingy from?

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interesting have not seen a sonic with restrooms for customers!!!!

or at least the signage
 
cda said:
interesting have not seen a sonic with restrooms for customers!!!! or at least the signage
Click to expand...
That just means they don't want to comply with the ADA, and should be looked at by the DOJ
 
The owners of Sonic restaurants also must comply with the provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act (the "ADA"), which requires the owners to provide reasonable accommodation for employees with disabilities and to make their restaurants accessible to customers with disabilities. The Company has made certain modifications to the design and construction of its restaurants in order to comply with the ADA. However, the ADA has not had a material impact on the Company, primarily because of a drive-in restaurant's inherent accessibility to all customers through their motor vehicles.

http://ir.sonicdrivein.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=930661-00-3049
 
Does anyone know the status of DOJ actually checking for ADA requirements,

either in these type businesses or others ( i.e. - is the DOJ actually checking

anything these days )?

If a business says %$#*&@ you AHJ, I'm not doing anything to my business.

Let the DOJ come and check if they want to. Does anyone notify the DOJ

that there is a "potential" problem in their jurisdiction? With a Sonic, or

Bubba's Bar-B-Q, or the local shop-a-palooza retail store? Of course, I am

presuming that your AHJ has not adopted the ANSI / A117.1 code.

Ya'lls thoughts! :)

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