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Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

T

texasbo

Platinum Member
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Jan 4, 2010
Messages
1,059
I apologize in advance for no drawing, but hopefully this is pretty simple. Because I want objective answers, I am not stating my opinion, although I do believe the answer is obvious.

2nd floor lobby/prefunction space, open to floor below. Occupant load of this space is 275, and all other spaces adequately exited. The prefunction space has two stairs that have adequate separation and descend through the opening, then converge at a landing that leads to a single monumental stair to 1st floor lobby.

I would like opinions from the members as to whether this constitutes two exits from the 2nd floor space or one.

Thanks in advance for your input.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Sounds like a single exit to me.

Makes me wonder if they combine after so many risers, how are they getting proper distance between exits for a space with 275 occupants?
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Open stairs are permitted to be used for the means of egress in two story conditions. The two paths must maintain the required separation until they reach the exit discharge. If the separation is maintained, it sounds acceptable. If they converge at a landing then it constitutes only one exit unless the common path of travel to that point is within the allowable limits
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Coug Dad said:

If they converge at a landing then it constitutes only one exit unless the common path of travel to that point is within the allowable limits
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Coug Dad, could you explain this a little more? Are you saying that if CPT is within limits from the landing to exit discharge you would be ok with it?

Let's say the distance from the top of stairs on second floor is only 20' to the bottom of stairs on the lower level, and from there they have a choice of multiple exits. Would you be ok with that?

I know this all sounds very basic and Code101, but indulge me here. Thanks.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

The CPT would be measured from the most remote point in the prefunction area to the intermediate landing. I doubt they will be within the 75 foot allowance.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Section 1019 states, "the required number of exits from any story, basement or individual space shall be maintained until arrival at grade or the public way". Regardless of CPET, I don't think the two stairways mering into one stairway is permitted.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

RJJ said:
I would agree with HD unless the single stair can handle all of the occ load directed to it.
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RJJ: The width of single monumental stair easily handles the occupant load of the two converging stairs. So you'd be OK with the exit arrangement in that case?

I sincerely appreciate the input from everyone. The responses are very interesting.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Coug Dad said:
The CPT would be measured from the most remote point in the prefunction area to the intermediate landing. I doubt they will be within the 75 foot allowance.
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Coug Dad: Actually, the distance from the most remote point of the 2nd floor space to the EXIT DOOR on the first floor is within the 75'. Given that information, are you saying that you would consider that the 2nd floor has two complying exits? Thanks again.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

texasbo

That is an interesting scenario. I assume there are two exits available from the bottom of the stairs. This must be a really small building, but it sounds like if the common path of travel is acheived to the intermediate landing and from that point you could reach two different stairs, it could be in conformance with the prescriptive code. A drawing would be helpful, though. The prefunction space could not be used for seating, otherwise a shorter CPT would apply.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Coug Dad said:
texasboThat is an interesting scenario. I assume there are two exits available from the bottom of the stairs. This must be a really small building, but it sounds like if the common path of travel is acheived to the intermediate landing and from that point you could reach two different stairs, it could be in conformance with the prescriptive code. A drawing would be helpful, though. The prefunction space could not be used for seating, otherwise a shorter CPT would apply.
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Coug Dad, from the intermediate landing, there is a single stair that takes you to the first floor. This is a typical grand stair with two stairs leading from the 2nd floor, converging to a landing, with a single, very wide, and very fancy stair leading to the 1st floor lobby. There are numerous exits around the 1st floor lobby, very near the bottom of the stair.

The building is quite large, but the other areas exit independently. The 2nd floor prefunction and first floor lobby are compact.

My real focus was getting opinions on how the group felt about two stairs converging into one, and if they thought it was a single exit or two.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

I guess I misunderstood your original description. If the two stairs from the prefunction merge into a single landing and then a single stair, then it would only be one means of egress. Two would be required.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

I would agree with Gene and others on the single exit since the landing and continuance travel consists of a single means of egress CPET for sure.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Occupant load of this space is 275
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Minimum 2 exits required per Table 1019.1 and Table 1015.1

CPET would not be applicable. It is a rabbit trail for this scenario
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Based on the occupant load, two exits or means of egress are required. If adequate (code compliant) separation is not maintained, there is only one exit.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Guys, I sincerely appreciate the input. To me this was the ultimate no-brainer, and I was embarrassed to even post it up in the forum.

However, sometimes applicants get so wound up, that I like to throw it out in this forum, stating no opinion of my own, and use you as arbiters.

And even though the applicant was A Man With, well, you know what he's with, I'll forego the condescension and invective and take the high road.

Thanks again for your help.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Hi there... devil's advocate here..

I've seen these pre-function areas (successfully) called and treated as mezzanines.. there are some special exiting provisions for mezzanines.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

Well Devils advocate it still would be required 2 independent exits because the OL exceeds the limits of 1015.1 of 49

505.3 Egress.

Each occupant of a mezzanine shall have access to at least two independent means of egress where the common path of egress travel exceeds the limitations of Section 1014.3. Where a stairway provides a means of exit access from a mezzanine, the maximum travel distance includes the distance traveled on the stairway measured in the plane of the tread nosing. Accessible means of egress shall be provided in accordance with Section 1007.

Exception: A single means of egress shall be permitted in accordance with Section 1015.1.
 
Re: Exit From 2nd Floor Prefunction Space

If the pre-function area is a problem.. the "function" area will be as well... there should be sufficient exits from there that comply.. (most pre-function areas are in the general vicinity of the function area)
 
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