Fire officials, Homebuilders Association remain far apart on sprinkler mandate

[mark handler]

Fire officials, Homebuilders Association remain far apart on sprinkler mandate

By Antonio Prado

Community News

Posted Jun 08, 2011

http://www.communitypub.com/news/x832283986/Fire-officials-Homebuilders-Association-remain-far-apart-on-sprinkler-mandate

Wilmington, Del. — New Castle County Council continues to be inundated from both sides of the ongoing debate over whether to mandate sprinklers in new home construction as part of the pending revision of the Unified Development Code.

But it's still not enough.

Both fire safety and construction lobbyists had supplied council with reams of documents to back up each sides’ case at council's Land Use Committee meeting held Tuesday at the City/County Building. However, much of the figures bantered about were taken with a grain of salt.

National Fire Protection Agency Mid-Atlantic Regional Manager J. Benjamin Roy and former Five Points Fire Chief Robert B. Sutton said sprinklers save lives, plain and simple. Meanwhile, Homebuilders Association of Delaware Executive Vice President Jennifer Casey said mandating sprinklers would be an extra cost that would hamper an already fragile market still recovering from a two-year recession.

The meeting was the second continuation of a committee meeting that originally began April 19, continued on April 26 and finally concluded June 7.

Councilman Joe Reda (D-Elsmere), chairman of the Land Use Committee, has sponsored an ordinance – which he tabled – that would require the installation of sprinklers in new homes as part of the revision of the Unified Development Code.

Councilmen David Tackett (D-Christiania) and Timothy Sheldon (D-Pike Creek) and Councilwoman Janet

Kilpatrick (R-Hockessin) and Lisa Diller (D-Newark) have sponsored an ordinance that would revise the UDC without the addition of the sprinkler mandate.

The homebuilders found allies in Habitat for Humanity Executive Director Kevin Smith and The Committee of 100 Executive Director Paul H. Morrill Jr. in opposing the sprinkler measure.

Habitat for Humanity helps low-income, hardworking people by giving them a place to live, Smith said.

“Any additional costs to us building houses would start to exclude people at the bottom,” he said.

“People should choose for the themselves,” Morrill said.

But the firemen found allies in the sprinkler business, such as Darren Palmieri, business development manager, residential, for Tyco Fire Protection Products in Lansdale, Pa.

In response to concerns about water pressure concerns raised by Reda, Palmieri said sprinklers need 7 pounds per square inch. In comparison, showerheads need 15 PSI, he said.

Then, there were opponents like Greater Hockessin Area Development Association President Mark Blake, who noted a case in California where a simple grease fire in a kitchen activated sprinklers that, upon landing on the fire, caused a fireball that killed three people.

Blake said interconnected, battery-backed smoke detectors get the job done when it comes to saving lives in the event of fire.

Building facilities engineer Gus Patterson, of Hockessin, said sprinklers for commercial establishments make sense. But when it comes to residential homes, water can be dangerous. He suggested the weight of water could even be fatal to sleeping children.

“Water can drown or smother people,” Patterson said. “I’ve seen the damage that sprinklers can cause [to a home].”

An irritated Councilman Jea Street (D-Wilmington South) asked Patterson if he knew of any cases where a child actually died because of sprinklers.

Patterson said he did not.

“Mr. Chairman, I’m sick and tired of the great exaggerations on both sides,” Street told Reda, the chairman of the committee. However, he urged council not to duck this issue.

Councilman Penrose Hollins (D-Wilmington North) echoed Street's sentiment on the information overload.

“There are a lot of extreme exaggerations on both sides that cannot be proved,” Hollins said, looking at the plethora of documents before him. “Let’s look at this with heads more level.”

Councilman Timothy Sheldon (D-Pike Creek), who has a background in construction, added that he could not get a handle on exactly how much sprinklers would add to construction costs.

“We should be able to see exactly what it is,” Sheldon said. “It's not ducking anything.”

Councilman Bob Weiner (R-Brandywine Hundred West) said he had heard of figures in the $1.75 to $2 per square foot range for the Darley Green development, the crown jewel of Claymont's renaissance.

Councilman John Cartier (D-Brandywine Hundred East) said he would find out how much costs was incurred to the contractor for Darley Green and present that to council.

As for the two competing ordinances, Councilman William Bell (D-Middletown) asked why council would separate the ordinances.

The sprinklers were the only sticking point, Assistant Land Use Manager George Haggerty said. Based upon discussions the Department of Land Use has had with the business it regulates, i.e. builders, there are five, minor updates that the contractors can live with, he said.

Copyright 2011 The Community News. Some rights reserved

 

[forensics]

In response to concerns about water pressure concerns raised by Reda, Palmieri said sprinklers need 7 pounds per square inch. In comparison, showerheads need 15 PSI, he said.

That is the absolute FACT about the water pressure shortage lie!

Then, there were opponents like Greater Hockessin Area Development Association President Mark Blake, who noted a case in California where a simple grease fire in a kitchen activated sprinklers that, upon landing on the fire, caused a fireball that killed three people.

That fire incident was caused by an undiluted antifreeze agent not the water and that issue has been addressed by an amendment to the code. Another distortion of the facts

Buiilding facilities engineer Gus Patterson, of Hockessin, said sprinklers for commercial establishments make sense. But when it comes to residential homes, water can be dangerous. He suggested the weight of water could even be fatal to sleeping children.

“Water can drown or smother people,” Patterson said. “I’ve seen the damage that sprinklers can cause [to a home].”

An irritated Councilman Jea Street (D-Wilmington South) asked Patterson if he knew of any cases where a child actually died because of sprinklers.

Patterson said he did not.

I wont even insult your intelligence by responding to this preposterous conclusion. I will say this is why elected officials should not be making building code regulations

“We should be able to see exactly what it is,” Sheldon said. “It's not ducking anything.”

Councilman Bob Weiner (R-Brandywine Hundred West) said he had heard of figures in the $1.75 to $2 per square foot range for the Darley Green development, the crown jewel of Claymont's renaissance.

OH NO Sprinklers for under $2 This cant be true after all how much does a fire brigade cost

SHEESH !!!

 

[forensics]

Buttclown of the month award goes too.................the envelope please>>>>>>>>>> BUILDING FAC ENG GUS PATTERSON

Buiilding facilities engineer Gus Patterson, of Hockessin, said sprinklers for commercial establishments make sense. But when it comes to residential homes, water can be dangerous. He suggested the weight of water could even be fatal to sleeping children.

“Water can drown or smother people,” Patterson said. “I’ve seen the damage that sprinklers can cause [to a home].”

 

[fireguy]

Buttclown of the month award goes too.................the envelope please>>>>>>>>>> BUILDING FAC ENG GUS PATTERSONBuiilding facilities engineer Gus Patterson, of Hockessin, said sprinklers for commercial establishments make sense. But when it comes to residential homes, water can be dangerous. He suggested the weight of water could even be fatal to sleeping children.

“Water can drown or smother people,” Patterson said. “I’ve seen the damage that sprinklers can cause [to a home].”

Doing a quick google for dihydrogen monoxide, (the scientific name for water) I found the following site. After reading the information on

, I must agree with Mr. Patterson about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. The chemical needs to be banned immediatly. To sign a petition, see this ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw

 

[conarb]

You guys should back off on continuing to screw the public with sprinklers, as I said when we were fighting this before the way to get back at you for your interminable lies and misinformation was to go after your obscene wages and pensions, our local firemen have seen the light and are offering concessions after seeing how mad the public is with them, and I've done my part to help get the word to nespaper reporters to expose you.

Contra Costa County firefighters to vote on major wage concession packageRank-and-file firefighters and dispatchers at the financially beggared Contra Costa Fire District will vote Monday and Tuesday on a tentative contract packed with $6.2 million in worker pay cuts.

Firefighters will also decide whether to reopen their pension deal. Employees and the county seek to ease skyrocketing retirement costs in the wake of the economic downturn.

Firefighters no doubt also factored burgeoning taxpayer dissatisfaction with public employee pension benefits that often outstrip those offered in the private sector.¹

Keep trying to screw us and we'll fight back, every one of you should get fired and stripped of your pensions, they are offering too little too late. Getting rid of firemen has even been the fodder for the comic strips:

¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_18301646?IADID=Search-www.contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com

 

[DRP]

This month's JLC reported that PA has repealed the sprinkler ammendment leaving CA as the only state with a mandantory sprinkler law. My current clients will be installing a system, which is fine with me, I prefer choices rather than mandates.

 

[cda]

Yes but whi approves the budget in a city the mayore or council or whatever elceted officals

that are voted in by J. public

and J. Public can set through every boring council meeting and voice thier opinion abouot anythiing on the agenda, but they choose not to.

 

[DRP]

This is not under the responsibilities of any elected or appointed official. The public can voice their opinion by choosing to, or not to, install these devices in their home. The marketplace rather than the government can make this decision. Firefighters and sprinkler manufacturers are free to lobby individuals to freely chose to install a system, they can lobby insurance companies to give rate incentives to people rather than forcing it upon the public. They are choosing the most expedient route but perhaps not the best one. There are people who just as adamantly believe we should force the public to install solar panels on the roof. This stuff is all nice and well intentioned but not neccessary to the goal of sheltering oneself, the minimum standard that the government is charged with overseeing.

 

[Mark K]

The statement "I will say this is why elected officials should not be making building code regulations" expresses a lack of understanding about building regulations.

Building codes must be adopted by elected officials. They provide a check on technocrats and special interests. All regulations are a balance between the desire to reduce a risk and the cost of doing so. Since this is a subjective tradeoff it is the role of the elected officials to make the decision for the public.

Restraint should be used in adopting regulations since they are crude tools that often have unintended consequences. Sure we may save some lives with sprinklers but we could save many more lives if we spent the money on other problems. The problem is that these other efforts to save lives do not have the well organized support that the fire industry can mobolize.

There was a recent article in the paper that pointed out that the retirement income for San Francisco city employees is greater than the average wage in the city. The average retiree from the Fire Department gets $108.552. People who play the race card are subject to criticism yet I find it interesting that firemen regularly play the "I run into buildings on fire" card.

 

[FM William Burns]

Those same elected officials in a poster's California also approve the contracts and those outrageous multipliers like 6 to 8% of one's annual wages based on the best three to six years instead of a reaonable COLA annual increase for retirees. Those greedy barganing groups and those close to retirement who abused those same elected officials allowances by soaking up overtime without any jurisdictional regulatory control to pad the best last years have now screwed many other states. This, by now restricting Barganing rights for groups of public employees who have historically worked with their cities to keep the scales balanced (at least in our region). Now it a matter of having to pay for the bad apples and their greedy practices and the stupid elected officials who allowed it.

One who blames one profession for the bad acts of a minority group within that profession should do some more research on exactly how much others make in retirement before they decide to drink from the kool-aid jug of the disgruntled. Not all professional firefighters are greedy.

 

[forensics]

My point in this post was not necessarily to argue the merits of sprinkers again ...but rather to highlight the preposterous things people say when they think or ASSume they are knowlegeable about a subject as complex as the sprinkler question

I accept and respect logical debate but somebody to had feed this misinformation to these baffoons because they aren't even quick enough to think this stuff up.

DRP- SC is requiring sprinklers as of Jan 1 2014 in all new homes SC Building Codes Council approved the IRC 2009 with RFS and only postponed implemination until 2014

Conarb- your rant against the fire service should make you support sprinklers that replace firefighters (Seems you must decide which you hate more RFS or the Fire Service)

DRP- The one consideration that you can be sure will impact the decision to sprinkler home is the light weight construction issue and the liability of somebody be it builder, code officials, legislators, or most probably the design professionals and architects. That contest will be playing out in a town near you and the liability is real.

 

[conarb]

The one consideration that you can be sure will impact the decision to sprinkler home is the light weight construction issue .......

Forensics:

Then why the broad brush tainting all homes with the sprinkler mandate? I don't build with lightweight products, yet I'm required to install sprinklers, why not limit sprinklers to lightweight construction? I've posted the Elmhurst Illinois solution several times, require sprinklers if I Joists are used, if roof trusses are used require sprinklers unless plywood gussets are glued and nailed over the gang-nail plates. The last I talked to the CBO no builder had opted for lightweight construction to avoid sprinklers, two problems are solved, it gets rid of crummy lightweight construction and it get's rid of sprinklers that cause more damage than they prevent. In this age of mold litigation water should never be put on a fire, either by hose or sprinklers.

We have another controversy here where 6 firefighters stood for 20 minutes and watched a suicidal man drown, a 20 year-old girl finally swam out and brought the 300 pound man back to shore while the firefighters in an island city stood and watched saying they weren't trained in water rescue in an island city, protestors are calling them cowards.

ALAMEDA -- A group of Alameda residents plan to stand in chest-deep water off the shore of Crown Memorial State Beach on Sunday morning to demonstrate the conditions in which a suicidal man died last month as police and firefighters watched from the beach.The group's organizers said they hope their demonstration will highlight how easy it would have been for first-responders to rescue Raymond Zack, 53, as he intentionally took his own life on Memorial Day.

"We want to put to rest all this nonsense," said Liz Williams, a resident of Alameda. "We want to take one argument off the table and show that these guys were cowards."

Williams said about 10 people will wade out into the water at the beach near the corner of Willow Avenue and Shoreline Drive at 9:30 a.m. The time and date were specifically chosen in order to approximate the weather and tide conditions when Zack died.¹

In other articles other bystanders didn't go out and rescue the man because firefighters were there, had the firefighters not been there they would have gone out and attempted a rescue. The taxpayers pay these guys huge amounts to sit around for life and they don't know what to do when a real situation presents itself, then you come here and beat the drum incessantly for sprinklers to get the kickbacks from the sprinkler industry to fuel your collective bargaining, and that's what residential sprinklers are all about.

¹ http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_18256905?IADID=Search-www.contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com

 

[forensics]

Finally Conarb something we agree on ...

If the designer or builder want to use light weight structural construction then he must protect the trusses by sprinklers or some other means!

 

[conarb]

Forensics:

Glad we agree, another thing, the fire service has long wanted placards on lightweight framed buildings so they know not to endanger themselves by going on the truss roofs or I Joist floors, several AHJs have passed ordinances requiring them. The NIOSH placard should be made universal and mandatory, that way firefighters can protect adjoining property and let the cheaply build homes burn to the ground. Why aren't you guys pushing harder for the placards rather than sprinklers? Maybe even insurance companies will get the message and start refusing to insure cheaply built housing.

 

[codeworks]

Sprinklers in homes provide about an additional 10 minutes for the ccupants to get out , limit damage and they do cut down on fire death and total fire loss. They make sense, yes, but in a "regulation/political debate" unfortunately a lot of facts wont make sense. We placards in Vermont (on public building only) that are similar, but not exactly the same, they designate the type of floor, floor- ceiling and roof construction, so that responders know what the structural hazards in a fire situation MIGHT hold, before they go in. It basically identifies the construction ( floor joists, floor trusses,trusses/roof trusses,etc)

 

[FM William Burns]

Why aren't you guys pushing harder for the placards rather than sprinklers?

Homeowners/Homebuilders hate them worse than sprinklers. Who wants to put a scarlet letter on their house indicating they may have something wrong. The public stigma....these are the comments I've heard in the Midwest about placarding private residential dwellings.

 

[brudgers]

I'll say it again, the number of lives potentially saved by mandatory single family sprinkler systems is negligible.

Banning steps and stairs would have a far greater positive impact on life safety.

As would banning firearms - you are 13 times more likely to commit suicide with a handgun than to die in a dwelling fire (multi-family and single-family combined).

 

[conarb]

Homeowners/Homebuilders hate them worse than sprinklers. Who wants to put a scarlet letter on their house indicating they may have something wrong. The public stigma....these are the comments I've heard in the Midwest about placarding private residential dwellings.

Marshal Burns:

Think of the service you would be doing the public by requiring these placards on buildings, the public should be aware of the differences between "good" construction and "bad" construction. It is finally hitting the mainstream media, in this MSN Report the address the issue of our current generation of "throwaway homes" (it's tricky, you have to click the arrows to go to the next picture and read the text along the side of the pictures), MSN addresses the issue of collapsing I Joists and roof trusses. The fire service is not alone to succumbing to the money of special interests, all of academic science is now beholden to the grant monies of special interests, science is now what the late great Richard Feynman described as "Cargo Cult Science", both our government and industries give grants to academics to prove an issue, not to research an issue.

While I'm on the subject of crappy construction needing more aggressive fire protection, someone here (maybe even you) posted a fire presentation about a year ago showing a manufactured home going up in flames so quickly that even sprinklers would have been of little use, following the long presentation the problem stemmed from two defective construction methodologies, the use of foams to glue the sheetrock to joists, and the large areas between the stacked "boxes", this is no-longer just a problem with manufactured housing, today conventional construction has adopted floor trusses that create the same voids between floors (the placards should be revised to show floor trusses in floors as well as I Joists), and foams are now being used for not-only gluing sheetrock but vast amounts are being used to insulate homes, some homes are getting foams applied all over them for insulation value, and in others spray foams are used as insulation, if you recall the video it would be well worth watching again to show the problems with so-called "affordable housing". with all of the fire history involving burning foams it is certainly within your purview, redeem your tarnished image by helping to inform people of the dangers of modern lightweight construction.

 

[mtlogcabin]

As would banning firearms - you are 13 times more likely to commit suicide with a handgun than to die in a dwelling fire (multi-family and single-family combined).

I could not find any statistics for suicide by dwelling fires

I always thought suicide was a personal choice along with how a person decides to commit suicide.

 

[conarb]

The Canadian government study again.

View attachment 958

​

View attachment 446

View attachment 446

/monthly_2010_06/canadian-study.jpg.a61b84096513c070a6d6a6e58089de60.jpg

 

[FM William Burns]

Conarb,

I hear ya and many jurisdictions have taken a more progressive role in educating the public to the hazards of "affordable housing" including all insulation materials like windows, foams and wraps. Some even realize and support compromise solutions to RFS but this too will take time. Personally, I like the placard idea and strongly agree with supporting it's use and potentials. For now we (our jurisdiction) work closly with the Building Department to learn of any new RFD housing materials identified as hazardous to potential operations and develop pre-incident plans including drawings housed in the computers in dispatch, command vehicles and engines. We continue to educate homeowners through media campaigns and began working with trade schools to educate future young contractors of the potentials.

Those continued efforts may expand since I have harped on these/the issues with foam and insulation through my experience in origin and cause analysis over the years. I recall the video but think Forensics or someone else may have posted it. I'll search my archives.

 

[forensics]

I NEVER thought I would say that Conarb is spot on but he has hit the nail squarely on the head!!!!

The placards are not just a good idea they are the firefighters "right to know".

The very least we can do is to make the firefighter aware of the known hazard of premature collapse.

That is the most basic of any right and the government OSHA standards demand it.

The danger that Engineered or Light Weight Structural Construction presents in the full knowledge of the manufacturers and professional builders is fertile ground for a wrongful death or injury suit.

Believe whatever Koolaide concoction you want but this sprinkler/lightweight const. issue will determined in court. MARK MY WORD ON THIS!!

 

[incognito]

Yeah go ahead and try to fly the placard kite. It will end up in the same pile of rubble as the residential fire sprinklers. Crazifornia is the only state left with them as law and I anticipate as the date gets closer for SC to begin enforcement that the Pennsylvania solution will step forward and win the day. You're drinking something a lot stronger than Kool-aide if you think wrongful death suits are going to win in fire events where RFS are not present. No matter how much you huff and puff you will never be able to prove that RFS would have made any difference in any fire event. Its all conjecture, supposition and guess work by biased fire officials as to whether or not someone may have survived a fire if RFS were present. It doesn't take much for even a dim witted attorney to present info on how fire investigators have sent innocent people to prison and execution due to their lack of investigative skills.

 

[DRP]

So is the real issue here not sprinklers but lightweight construction?

If so why are you not adressing that problem. Why are we making... well hopinging to force, all homeowners to install something that apparently you really only feel some actually need, and that need is apparently not for their protection but for yours.

A visible placard on a building is not needed, we have the ability to store that information and transmit it to the firefighters en route, a virtual placard.

I have seen the lawsuit threat trotted out multiple times and don't really have any concerns over that. These are code approved building systems. If they are the problem, take care of that at the source.

Bluster, name calling, fabricated quotes, threats.. weak minds with weak arguments, take it up a notch, it shows a level.