floor constructed with wood I joists

[linnrg]

In the 2012 IRC there is new language under R501.3 "Fire Protection of floors"

How does this same concept appear (if it does) under the IBC.

What are other code officials thoughts toward this being added to the IRC.

 

[cda]

In the 2012 IRC there is new language under R501.3 "Fire Protection of floors"How does this same concept appear (if it does) under the IBC.

What are other code officials thoughts toward this being added to the IRC.

Normally basement issue only???

""How does this same concept appear (if it does) under the IBC."""

Don't think it does, more of a keep the house standing under fire conditions for a few more minutes

 

[cda]

http://blog.certainteed.com/2014/09/builder-beware-code-changes-require-cover-up-of-exposed-beams/

 

[mtlogcabin]

Not required in the IBC

What are other code officials thoughts toward this being added to the IRC.

I do not believe it was needed. The mindset that if it saves one firefighter it is worth it is purely emotionally driven. Fire rescue is dangerous occupation, codes to reduce risk to the firefighter should be based on a significant number of deaths or injuries not based on the occasional. What that number is should be decided locally not nationally as each jurisdiction would have better knowledge of the fire incidents and how they respond to a specific call.

If the fire departments response time is 20 minutes to a scene is there any reason for a firefighter to enter that structure. Smoke has probably taken its toll on any occupants that may still be in the building.

We eliminated that provision and the IRC sprinkler requirements at the state level

 

[fatboy]

I would say it is not in the IBC because all R Occupancies are required to be sprinklered already, so the protection is there.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Is it required if sprinklered? I think it was added because of all the areas that have deleated the sprinklers from the IRC. Pa deleated sprinklers but added needing drywall for basement ceilings when joists are less than 1.5" thick, or add sprinklers just in basement. Nothing about exposed joists in other floors or storys. Don't know why you would need to cover the first story floor joists but not the 2nd or 3rd story floor joists.

 

[FM William Burns]

I do not believe it was needed. The mindset that if it saves one firefighter it is worth it is purely emotionally driven. Fire rescue is dangerous occupation, codes to reduce risk to the firefighter should be based on a significant number of deaths or injuries not based on the occasional.

I totally disagree. There is empirical data available on the failure rate of these and other materials like the stairs for review. The typical failure rate and flashover rates are in direct association to the materials and furnishing in homes today versus legacy structures and furnishings (not response times/delay). Our response times have greatly improved historically. The argument being used to support the protection is valid and based on research not that the fire service is worried about the increased dangers to our profession caused by the advancement of water downed NHBA codes.



http://ulfirefightersafety.com/projects/

 

[steveray]

Is it required if sprinklered? I think it was added because of all the areas that have deleated the sprinklers from the IRC. Pa deleated sprinklers but added needing drywall for basement ceilings when joists are less than 1.5" thick, or add sprinklers just in basement. Nothing about exposed joists in other floors or storys. Don't know why you would need to cover the first story floor joists but not the 2nd or 3rd story floor joists.

As you enter a house, you might not know if the first floor was about to collapse...but you would look up and see if the floor above was....

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Would IBC Section 711.3.3 be comparable to R501.3? except 1 hr with 13R, 1/2 hr. with 13

711.3 Fire-resistance rating.

The fire-resistance rating of floor and roof assemblies shall not be less than that required by the building type of construction. Where the floor assembly separates mixed occupancies, the assembly shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than that required by Section 508.4 based on the occupancies being separated. Where the floor assembly separates a single occupancy into different fire areas, the assembly shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than that required by Section 707.3.10. Horizontal assemblies separating dwelling units in the same building and horizontal assemblies separating sleeping units in the same building shall be a minimum of 1-hour fire-resistance-rated construction.

Exception: Dwelling unit and sleeping unit separations in buildings of Type IIB, IIIB and VB construction shall have fire-resistance ratings of not less than 1/2 hour in buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1.

711.3.1 Ceiling panels.

Where the weight of lay-in ceiling panels, used as part of fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies, is not adequate to resist an upward force of 1 pound per square foot (48 Pa), wire or other approved devices shall be installed above the panels to prevent vertical displacement under such upward force.

711.3.2 Access doors.

Access doors shall be permitted in ceilings of fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling and roof/ceiling assemblies provided such doors are tested in accordance with ASTM E 119 or UL 263 as horizontal assemblies and labeled by an approved agency for such purpose.

711.3.3 Unusable space.

In 1-hour fire-resistance-rated floor assemblies, the ceiling membrane is not required to be installed over unusable crawl spaces. In 1-hour fire-resistance-rated roof assemblies, the floor membrane is not required to be installed where unusable attic space occurs above.

 

[mtlogcabin]

FM

Your response time may have been reduced. However in rural areas served by a VFD that would not be the norm. I agree that an unprotected I-joist will fail quicker than unprotected dimensional lumber that is a proven fact. My point was the VFD is 20 to 25 minutes away from my home after they receive the call. That is 5 to 10 minutes after the water supply in a residential fire suppression system has been exhausted. That is to late to save me or my family and there is no way a firefighter should enter my house after that amount of time.

Don't risk your life to save my basement

Locally is where the decision should be about some of these codes. In my town 6 or 7 minutes and the FD will be there so maybe we should consider gypsum board since the state amended the sprinkler provisions out of the code. Unfortunately they did not leave the local AHJ's the option.

Unfinished basements typically do not have a lot of furnishings similar to the rest of the home.

 

[cda]

Is it required if sprinklered? I think it was added because of all the areas that have deleated the sprinklers from the IRC. Pa deleated sprinklers but added needing drywall for basement ceilings when joists are less than 1.5" thick, or add sprinklers just in basement. Nothing about exposed joists in other floors or storys. Don't know why you would need to cover the first story floor joists but not the 2nd or 3rd story floor joists.

Normally covered in Sheetrock already on upper floors

I have not seen the house with exposed I beams on the first or second floor I'm sure they're out there though

 

[linnrg]

I have seen lots of houses with exposed beams and decking above - very common in timber frame and floors in log homes.

Can someone point out to me the code section (prior to the 2012 version) that says you have to have a drywall on the under side of joists (engineered or dimensional) for the second floor, third floor fourth etc. We see drywall all of the time but does the code require it? NO.

I know about undersides of stairs and garage house walls/ceiling that require sheetrock.

I think this new code requirement is unnecessary and costly and will add dollars to projects that don't benefit from it.

It is going to be a mess trying to get this material into crawl spaces (that have fuel fire appliances) and protect it during all of our inclement weather we build through. I rarely see crawl spaces that are not crammed with family storage (although for my code duties I have to assume it will never happen).

I will be deleting the section when I get around to the 2012 IRC just as I intend to delete the fire sprinklers.

Here in Alaska we have by code amendments several of the R occupancies that can be built without fire sprinklers.

 

[cda]

I have seen lots of houses with exposed beams and decking above - very common in timber frame and floors in log homes.Can someone point out to me the code section (prior to the 2012 version) that says you have to have a drywall on the under side of joists (engineered or dimensional) for the second floor, third floor fourth etc. We see drywall all of the time but does the code require it? NO.

I know about undersides of stairs and garage house walls/ceiling that require sheetrock.

I think this new code requirement is unnecessary and costly and will add dollars to projects that don't benefit from it.

It is going to be a mess trying to get this material into crawl spaces (that have fuel fire appliances) and protect it during all of our inclement weather we build through. I rarely see crawl spaces that are not crammed with family storage (although for my code duties I have to assume it will never happen).

I will be deleting the section when I get around to the 2012 IRC just as I intend to delete the fire sprinklers.

Here in Alaska we have by code amendments several of the R occupancies that can be built without fire sprinklers.

I am talking about the thin I beams:::

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&cat=pics&c=pf&q=Wood+I+beam&h=237&w=300&th=126&tw=160&fn=BCI-Joists-The-Range.png&fs=131.4%20k&el=boss_pics_1&tu=http:%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DHN.608023531162503085%26pid%3D15.1%26H%3D126%26W%3D160&rl=NONE&u=http:%2F%2Fwww.oakworthtimberengineering.co.uk%2FI-joist-I-beam.html&udata=e3cea3662fbc5a2cd429a11b693c97ca&rid=LCLOMQRMTMLK862JVYJSU&oiu=http:%2F%2Fwww.oakworthtimberengineering.co.uk%2Fimages%2FBCI-Joists-The-Range.png

Have not seen them on upper floors exposed

 

[linnrg]

cda,

exactly, I just had a basement where the first floor joists were BCI's, the basement contained the mechanical equipment

this could just as easily been a home with the mechanical room above BCI's in a room with another story above and still not have drywall ceiling

My comment was to open up the discussion to how now we are beginning to mandate sheet rock where we have not had this in the past.

For cost (homeowners or builders perspective) could you final a home/cabin that had the PROPER: habitable space, sleeping spaces, bathroom spaces, kitchen space, two floor over a foundation with a crawl space and no garage, properly protected wiring schemes, no foam insulation, etc. (oh - and in a jurisdiction the had amended out the sprinklers) and do this without ever installing drywall? Until this new code section came along I would have had to answer yes, except if you had any storage under the stairs then you would have to get some sheetrock.

 

[mtlogcabin]

My comment was to open up the discussion to how now we are beginning to mandate sheet rock where we have not had this in the past.

Not Correct

Interior wall coverings have been required since the 2003 IRC, and my 1995 CABO edition, maybe earlier but I did not look any further back.

It is the unfinished basements that have traditionally been allowed but not permitted under the code.

The 2012 IRC addresses the long practice of allowing unfinished basements and only requires the ceilings to have gypsum board

R702

INTERIOR COVERING

702.1 General.

Interior coverings or wall finishes shall be installed in accordance with this chapter and Tables R702.1(1), Table R702.1(2), Table R702.1(3) and Table R702.3.5. Interior masonry veneer shall comply with the requirements of Section R703.7.1 for support and Section R703.7.4 for anchorage, except an air space is not required. Interior finishes and materials shall conform to the flame spread and smoke-density requirements of Section R315.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Could that explain why these old CO's have basements identified as storage instead of unfinished areas?

NEC;

Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section,

unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of

the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited

to storage areas, work areas, and the like

 

[cda]

I am thinking the sheet rocked basement also gives the home tenants a better chance of survival

 

[linnrg]

thanks mtlogcabin

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I don't see anywhere in this secton that is telling you where the walls are required to be covered. This section only tells you how to install wall coverings. Nothing here about log homes too.

R702

INTERIOR COVERING

702.1 General.

Interior coverings or wall finishes shall be installed in accordance with this chapter and Tables R702.1(1), Table R702.1(2), Table R702.1(3) and Table R702.3.5. Interior masonry veneer shall comply with the requirements of Section R703.7.1 for support and Section R703.7.4 for anchorage, except an air space is not required. Interior finishes and materials shall conform to the flame spread and smoke-density requirements of Section R315.

 

[retire09]

I agree, it has always been my understanding that mostly the only wall coverings required were for the separation between the garage and the house and around tubs.

 

[mtlogcabin]

SECTION R805

CEILING FINISHES

R805.1 Ceiling installation.

Ceilings shall be installed in accordance with the requirements for interior wall finishes as provided in Section R702.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Chapter 8 Roof-ceiling Construction. Chapter 8 regulates the design and construction of roof-ceiling systems. This chapter contains two roof-ceiling framing systems: wood framing and cold-formed steel framing. Allowable span tables are provided to simplify the selection of rafter and ceiling joist size for wood roof framing and cold-formed steel framing. Chapter 8 also provides requirements for the application of ceiling finishes, the proper ventilation of concealed spaces in roofs (e.g., enclosed attics and rafter spaces), unvented attic assemblies and attic access.

 

[retire09]

I see this to be the same as the requirement for the walls and applies only if a covering is provided.

An open beam roof has no ceiling and is not required to have one.

Wall and ceiling coverings, if required, would eliminate the log cabin and exposed beam styles of construction.

I agree, as written, it sounds like it is required, but I'm just trying to apply the code to construction methods I know are nationally accepted.

 

[mtlogcabin]

If Chapter's 7 and 8 are optional for interior finishes then the phrase "where required" should be in the code section

As for log homes and post and beams with exposed wood finish they should be able to meet

R302.9.2 Smoke-developed index.

Wall and ceiling finishes shall have a smoke-developed index of not greater than 450.

http://www.terramai.com/userfiles/file/Technical/USDA_Flame_Spread_Index_for_Wood.pdf

I do not know what the SDI is for exposed wood I-Joist