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Furnace change outs!

SCBO1

SCBO1

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I here this alot, City XYZ does'nt require a permit for a furnace change out! Please tell me you require a permit and if you don't why?

I check for the union, gas valve, drip leg, flue clearance, furnace clearances, condensate line being secured, electrical switch, proper breaker, discharge/intake, combustion air, pipe support, a/c disconnect and other items as well.

What about a water heater? Same issues!

Add to this list of items you look for if you want!

pc1
 
Replacing a furnace or boiler or water heater means installing a new one, and our ordinance requires a permit.
 
Mac said:
Replacing a furnace or boiler or water heater means installing a new one, and our ordinance requires a permit.
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And we do also.

The water heater permit is free for some reason known to the council. Only ones bothering to get that permit is Sears, HD and Lowes since it's part of their installers requirement to provide it to get paid.

Big problem here is AC units. Funny thing is, when one can spot those hanging from a crane for miles around here, when I ask for a permit, the guy wants to know how I found him.
 
Permit required for water heater and all HVAC replacements. Can not imagine why a permit would not be required after seeing some of the stuff we have encountered on "simple" replacements.
 
Required here. Generally checking the same things.

The big box stores are very good about pulling permits, Joe Homeowner not so much.

Fee is $50. Includes $10 admin. and $40 inspection.

mj
 
Pcinspector1 said:
Mark do you mean R313.2.1?
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Need to add them, or check to see they are there.....

R314.3.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

R315.2 Where required in existing dwellings.
 
You forgot the rest of the section

R314.3.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

When alterations , repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings , the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings .

Exceptions:

1. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings , such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirements of this section.

2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or mechanical systems are exempt from the requirements of this section.
 
mtlogcabin said:
You forgot the rest of the sectionR314.3.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

When alterations , repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings , the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings .

Exceptions:

1. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings , such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirements of this section.

2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or mechanical systems are exempt from the requirements of this section.
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You are right, Deleted out of My copy.

State of CA took Exceptions out of the 2009 IRC....
 
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mntlogcabin,

Please check chapter 2, definitions: Alteration in the Irc2006 vs the 2009 and see if it changed?

pc1
 
2006 IRC

ALTERATION. Any construction or renovation to an existing structure other than repair or addition that requires a permit. Also, a change in a mechanical system that involves an extension, addition or change to the arrangement, type or purpose of the original installation that requires a permit.

R313.2.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

When alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired.

Exceptions:

1. Inter connection and hard-wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide access for hard wiring and interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.

2. Work involving the exterior surfaces of dwellings, such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirements of this section.

2009 IRC

Exception

2. Installation, alteration or repairs of plumbing or mechanical systems are exempt from the requirements of this section.

The definition did not change but exception 2 did change in 2009
 
If you do absolutely no work the PMC is still going to require smoke alarms. When checking the furnace install, the PMC can be enforced (assuming it is adopted in your locale, and; your local law give you the authority to do so).

Permit is required to do the changeout here. Very few ever get them. We have been keeping a record of the equipment fuel type and BTU so that we may detect unpermitted changeouts in the future.
 
I don't know TimNY the whole PMC is about maitnance till you get to that section. Is the intent of that section mean an inspector should be knocking on doors to require retro installation of smoke detectors in SFR built before they became part of the code? Or is it the intent that when an inspector is there due to other reasons (complaint) you can call it out and get them installed as part of the violations noted. I would go with the latter
 
It applies to all buildings. It means the homeowner is responsible for installing the smoke alarm the day the PMC is adopted (which for most of us was a decade ago).

For me, it means when I do an inspection, there must be smoke alarms present. I do not go outside the scope of my inspection area to look for them (ie in a furnace changeout I am not going to be poking around in bedrooms). However, if I am in a basement and there is no smoke alarm I will require it be installed.

I do know municipalities that will inspect for smoke alarms throughout when they have any open permit.

I would rather err in favor of the Fourth Amendment, which is why you cannot go knocking on doors to inspect.

EDIT: well you can go knocking on doors, and some might allow entry. You could not demand entry.
 
mark handler said:
You are right, Deleted out of My copy. State of CA took Exceptions out of the 2009 IRC....
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i believe the state will be putting them back in real soon! they will allow the co alarms to be battery operated only, deleting the hard wired clause. seems a lot of people objected to hiring electricians to install the hard wired alarms for exterior work and mechanical change outs
 
No way am I going to start diving into the PMC when replacing plumbing and/or HVAC equipment. It has been hard enough to get permits for these projects.
 
The City has always required furnace change outs to be permited. This year we have changed it that you still have to pull a permit for a change out but you also have to install CO dect. and test the plastic flue piping 5 PSI for 15 min. It has worked great here and let me tell you we have had 12 change outs after the new code change and we have had 7 failers in the flue pipe testing.
 
Pcinspector1 said:
I here this alot, City XYZ does'nt require a permit for a furnace change out! Please tell me you require a permit and if you don't why?. . . Add to this list of items you look for if you want!

pc1
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I remember UB wrote to the effect: "you can make all the codes you want; doesn't mean they will enforce them"

Virginia Code similar to 2006 IRC M1801.3

103.9 Equipment changes.


Upon the replacement or new installation of any fuel-burning appliances or equipment in existing buildings, an inspection or inspections shall be conducted to ensure that the connected vent or chimney systems comply with the following:

1. Vent or chimney systems are sized in accordance with either the International Residential Code, the International Mechanical Code or the International Fuel Gas Code, depending on which is applicable based on the fuel source and the occupancy classification of the structure.

2. Vent or chimney systems are clean, free of any obstruction or blockages, defects or deterioration and are in operable condition. Where not inspected by the local building department, persons performing such changes or installations shall certify to the building official that the requirements of Items 1 and 2 of this section are met.

​
Here the certification is different at each AHJ if at all if they are aware; this is of concern where inspectors are not qualified nor have the equipment (besides flash lights) to make these inspections.
 
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We require permits for HVAC and water heater replacements. Since we are under 2006 we don't have an exception, plus we have a state law requiring smoke alarms and CO detectors to fall back on.
 
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